How the heck [b]SHOUD[/b] XP work

[Gaiden]

I have been playing 3E since it came out and I must say that the rules for EL and CR are even more confusing than 2E. (and that is saying something).

If a party consists of four characters all of equal level, the rules are perfectly straight forward and I have no complaint. However, it is when the number of members of a party differs from 4 and all members are not all of the same level that I am confused about.

How do you adequately account for the increased or decreased power of a party when either one of the above difficulties arise with regards to awarding XP. I guess what I am asking for is: Has anyone come up with a algorhythm for determining XP that works in the spirit of 13.3 battles of CR equal to party level (whatever that is exactly) before attaining another level.

There seems to be several ways of determining average party level.

1. add all levels of all party members together and divide by the number of party members.

2. add all levels of all party members together and divide by 4.

3. modify characters through the chart on pg 101 of DMG such that one character equals an encounter level of one character of his level or multiple characters of a lower level. So let's say that a party consisted of one 5th level character and 2 3rd level characters. Since a 5th level is equivalent to 2 3rd level characters, the party is now equivalent to 4 3rd level characters and thus is equal to a 3rd level party.

Once party level has been determined then one has to calculate experience.

It seems that there are also several ways that this can be done

1. add all of the XP from each individual monster together according to each monster's individual CR according to the XP chart on pg 166 of DMG

2. modify CRs to EL by coming up with a grand total EL for the entire encounter using the chart on pg 101 of DMG such that if you had 8 CR 1/2 creatures, 5 CR 2 creatures, 3 CR 5 creatures and 1 CR 8 creature: the 8;1/2's = 4 or 5, the 5;2's = 6 or 7, the 3;5's = an 8, and the 1;8 = 8. Thus you now have 2;8's, 1;5 and 1;7 (used higher value for simplicity). 2;8's = 5or6;5's and 1;7 = 2;5's so now you have a total of 9;5s (again rounding up) which is the equivalent of an EL 11 battle.

After XP has been calculated one then has to figure out how to divide it. - again with several methods

1. divide equally among players

2. divide XP by number of total levels of players then give each player that amount multiplied by their level

3. divide XP in reverse order of original calculation of party level using the chart on pg 101 of DMG so that if it was determined that 1;5 = 2;3's then since out of the theoretical 4;3's that exist in the party the 1;5 would get half the XP and the 2;3's would divide the other half equally.

All of this doesn't even include methods to calculate XP separately for each person starting from the beginning.

THoughts and suggestions would be appreciated. Again, remeber the purpose of the XP is to be consistent with the idea behind 13.3 battles per level gained for a party of four characters all of equal level fighting encounters equal to their party level.

Thanks in advance for your posts and going through all of that math.



edit - forgot to add that with those 13.3 battles: each battle only uses a 1/4 of the party's resources

 

[Umbran]

In general, there are umpteen different ways you can do a thing. The question is - is there a compelling reason to do it by a method other than the book's? There is, on occasion, a reason. But usually, the more complicated the method, the less resonable it is.

In the end, the whole XP system is made up of guidelines rather than rules. This is a good thing, in the long run. But there' s no reason to think you should need to do complicated math to fudge along a guideline.

Keep it simple. You'll be happier for it.

 

[Mephistopheles]

I use the method in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (p 299), and I tweak the amount of XP so that each player gains a level roughly every 3 to 5 sessions depending on what they are doing.

 

[smetzger]

Uhm, I don't know seems pretty simple to me.

Party Level is the average level of the characters. You always divide by the total to find the average.

The XP chart is pretty simple also, you look up the CR of a creature and compare it to the Party Level. You do this for each creature/obstacle overcome and sum the result, then divide equally among the characters.

The alternate system in the FRCS will only give you different numbers if there is a large disparity in levels among characters. The FRCS method will tend to give more XP to the lower level characters and less XP to the higher level characters. So if you want the character's levels to eventually converge use this method. If thats not such a problem then stick to the simpler DMG method.

 

[kreynolds]

I use the method in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (p 299)...

Same here, but I usually don't have to tweak anything.

 

[Gromm]

I use the method in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (p 299), and I tweak the amount of XP so that each player gains a level roughly every 3 to 5 sessions depending on what they are doing.

FRCS has the BEST XP system. The other method leads to parties with a single low level PC getting FAR more XP than they should, and that low level PC never catches up.

Heres the FR method in case you don't have the book.
Figure XP for each character based on his or her level and then divide by the number of players.

Its simple, doesn't give too much XP to high level PCs and gives more to lower level PCs, giving them a hope of catching up someday.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Originally posted by Gaiden:
2. add all levels of all party members together and divide by 4.

i've thought about doing that... it gives a group of seven 8th level an "average" (used very loosely) character level of 14.

do you think a CR/EL 14 is appropriate for seven 8th level characters?

 

[Rel]

I'm not sure if this is the kind of thing that you are looking for but I have an xp system that is an alternative to the one in the DMG. I find that it winds up being extremely simple and very easy to customize to get the rate of level progression that you want. I originally posted this in my story hour and I just cut & pasted the post, so if it has some story hour specific references, sorry.

And if you are dedicated to using the system in the DMG or some variant of that, just skip this whole, long post.

XP system used by Rel

First, I must note that most of the credit for this system should go to the player who runs Speaks with Stone in my current campaign. He originally designed it to replace the clunky xp system for Rolemaster and since then, he and I have both tweaked and refined it. It works like this:

First, there's a chart that looks sort of like this:

___Combat_____________________________________
___Enchantment________________________________
___Creation_____________________________________
___Skills_______________________________________
___Puzzle_____________________________________
___Sacrifice__________________________________
___Learned_____________________________________
___Character___________________________________
___Goal_______________________________________
___Social______________________________________

___x X

The players each have a copy of this chart for every session. As we go along they write down things that their character has done in a particular category in the big blank to the right.

At the end of the session, they give me the sheets and I "grade their papers". In doing so, I will put "tic marks" in the small blanks to the left if they have fulfilled the requirements for the category. At the bottom I total up all the marks they received and then apply a multiplier based on their current level (represented by the X in the chart above). Currently, the formula I use for the multiplier is 50+(character level x 15).

On average, I'd say the players get around 7 marks per session. If a 5th level player gets 7 marks they would get 875 experience points for the session (the multiplier for a 5th level character is 125 per the above formula).

In practice this meant that it took around 3 sessions for everyone to make 2nd level. On average, it has taken approximately one session longer to reach each of the successive levels than it did to get to 2nd (i.e. 4 more session to make 3rd, 5 more sessions to make 4th, etc.).

When I say that 7 marks is average for a session, I mean precisely that. There have been sessions where some characters only got 4 or 5 marks. And there have been some sessions where they got 10 or 11 marks. It all depends on how involved you are in the game.

Let me give a few details about how I grade the various categories.

Combat - I usually give out one mark for every "minor" combat the group takes part in and two for a "major" combat. These are rather subjective definitions but I'm comfortable with them.

Enchantment - If a character casts at least half their normal spell allotment or uses the powers of most of their magic items, I give them a mark here. If a character goes through their whole spell selection more than once, I usually give them a second point. It has been argued that this category heavily favors the spell casters over the non spell casters but there are other categories that the spell casters are not as likely to get so that doesn't bother me. YMMV.

Creation - The characters get points here for using any craft skills to create things in the game. Sometimes I have given a point if one character in particular was the mastermind of an elaborate plan. Also, I give points here if the player contributes to the game in a material way, such as painting figures, drawing maps for areas of the campaign the characters know about or bringing extensive background material about a topic important to the game (perhaps some stuff they found about Roman architecture, ancient weaponry, mining techniques or anything else that helps bring detail and life to the campaign).

Skills - This is the category the Rogues love. If a character uses most of their skills during a session, they get credit for it here, provided they aren't already getting credit for it elsewhere.

Puzzle - This category represents the character solving a puzzle in game. It applies to elaborate traps and to unraveling the sinister plot of the evil mastermind. I should mention that I don't have that many elaborate traps in my campaign and the evil masterminds are pretty good at hiding their plots so I don't wind up handing out many points in this category.

Sacrifice - This represents heroism in the face of bad odds, putting your character at risk for innocents or helpless party members or giving up something for the greater good. This is one category in which the fighter types tend to outperform the spell casters.

Learned - This category reflects new information that the party has uncovered that is of general interest or specific importance to the plot. This is one that they get credit for almost every session.

Character - This is another point they should be getting every session because it reflects how they portray the personality of their character. Exhibiting the quirks, flaws and peculiarities of your character will always get you a point here. If you have a session where the quintessential personality of your character is captured in almost every scene, you'll get two points here.

Goal - Characters get points here for accomplishing major party goals as well as minor goals the character sets for themselves. I have the players tell me their goals in advance (or else they don't get credit for them) which gives me an indicator as to which way the campaign will likely be headed.

Social - They get credit mostly for interacting with NPC's in meaningful ways. I don't usually give credit for interactions within the party but I sometimes will if one of the characters shares a story or other details from their background that the other party members didn't already know.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: This system may not work for everyone! But I think it has several things going for it that work really well for me and the group I game with.

First, I never have to use the CR system in the DMG to figure out xp. I don't have to crack a book while I'm giving out experience because everything I need is on their sheet or in my head.

Second, it rewards the players for doing things besides combat. If some kind of encounter is important to the campaign, the players don't feel any need to rush through it to get to the combat. They know that they will be rewarded so long as what they're doing is relevant to the story, whether it be fighting monsters, conducting a diplomatic mission, celebrating the birthday of a loved one or doing espionage.

Third, it keeps the players focused on the game if they record stuff on these sheets during play. They may notice that they haven't put anything in the blank next to "Character" yet and that reminds them that they should be putting more of their character's personality into the session. If they haven't put anything in the "Goal" category yet, maybe they need to focus on what the group is trying to accomplish and not get side tracked by looting a room full of dead goblins.

Ugh, this long post makes it look like this system could be a nightmare! I promise, it isn't. I swear I spend 5-10 minutes maximum figuring experience at the end of the sessions. Most of that is me trying to do the multiplication in my head! Anyhow, if you have any more questions about the system, I'll be happy to answer them and you're obviously free to use it if you like.

 

[sbwoodside]

some thoughts about the matter

I have been playing 3E since it came out and I must say that the rules for EL and CR are even more confusing than 2E. (and that is saying something).

2E didn't have an EL and CR system? I think that the 3E system is a great innovation, but then the party I'm playing with so far has always been close to the norm.

<snip>
How do you adequately account for the increased or decreased power of a party when either one of the above difficulties arise with regards to awarding XP. I guess what I am asking for is: Has anyone come up with a algorhythm for determining XP that works in the spirit of 13.3 battles of CR equal to party level (whatever that is exactly) before attaining another level.

I don't have time to try to do all the math & research right now to figure this all out. But here are some thoughts that might help focus the discussion.


PROBLEM 1 - How to determine what is a fair challenge for your party
---

Effective Party Level (EPL). This is the what party level SHOULD be. We know what it is with four characters of equal level (it's their level). When you know the EPL, you can use it to find an appropriate challenge by looking at the DMG's CR rating table.

QUESTION 1: What is the EPL for small, large, or mixed parties?

It seems like the DMG lays out two axioms for challenge:
Axiom 1 - After 13.3 battles of CR = EPL the party should gain an effective level (i.e., the EPL should rise by 1).
Axiom 2 - After one battle of CR = EPL the party should have expended 20% of its resources.

Just because you satisfy one, doesn't mean you satisfy the other.

Challenges are two-fold: that if the EPL is too high then the monsters may focus their attacks more, thus subjecting individual party members to greater danger of death; that if the EPL is too high the party may not have enough plusses on their weapons to touch the monster.

PROBLEM 2 - How do you divide the XP fairly among a mixed group?
---

???


I would like to see more discussion of this issue, especially trying to keep it in line with the system in the DMG.

edit - forgot to add that with those 13.3 battles: each battle only uses a 1/4 of the party's resources

Not 1/4 ... 1/5 = 20%

Simon