How the hell do readied actions work!

To sum it up: ready actions as Immidiate Reactions makes sense mechanically, even with the exception that you can take and immidiate reaction after an enemy enters a square.

Except that one cannot ready an action in an attempt to prevent another action.

One cannot ready an action to shoot the invisible Wizard (and possibly stun or kill him) if the Wizard suddenly becomes visible when he casts an attack spell.

The mechanic is totally flawed because it removes a significant percentage of the scenarios for which someone might want to ready.

Immediate Interrupt works better, even considering the corner cases that I can both attack and shift with my special readied action.

I understand that the rule was changed because of all of the extra stuff that can occur as part of an attack in 4E.

They still threw the baby out with the bath water.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Sorry, but it always being an immediate interrupt is worse from a game health standpoint than it always being an immediate reaction. Neither is optimal, however.
 

The mechanic is totally flawed because it removes a significant percentage of the scenarios for which someone might want to ready.

I understand that the rule was changed because of all of the extra stuff that can occur as part of an attack in 4E.

They still threw the baby out with the bath water.
Very well put.
 

While folks are complaining about 'Ready' - I really don't think it works well in turn reference. For example, if you ready an action that provokes to occur on an adjacent enemy's turn, that enemy can't take an OA. Similarly, you can ready for 'end of turn' and 'save ends' debuffs to expire, thereby sidestepping the rules in Delay for penalties not going away until you actually take your action.

But being able to ready as an immediate interrupt would actually mean that you could completely neutralize a melee Solo by just having some ranged attacks and a few blockers with readied actions. Which is poor.
 

The concept that they really didn't go into, which is the only thing that's poorly explained IMO, is what constitutes a "sub-action" ... what is a single increment of time/events which can't be broken up by a reaction.

The OP originally seems to have understood that that increment was the action. As per the use of readied actions in response to (e.g.) the movement portion of a charge, this is not the case. It certainly appears that (a) a nonfree action is always at least one sub-action in size... that is, anything other than free actions can be reacted to as a whole; but (b) an individual square of movement, and (IMO) an individual attack, is a subaction in its own right, and can thus be reacted to even if it's part of a single compound action (like a charge, Twin Strike [cf. Black Arrow Style - they're sequential], etc).

Now, as for the problems with readied actions, for the most part I don't see 'em. For example, keterys, you're thinking of immediate actions - opportunity attacks can be taken on any turn, including your own, if someone else provokes during it. (Cause Fear would be an excellent example of how this could happen). Yes, immediate actions can't generally be taken during your own turn and thus you could in theory avoid a Combat Challenge attack by readying your attack until during the fighter's turn. Personally I ignore the "not during your own turn" clause for the most part, if it causes something not to make sense, but by RAW you're correct that this is a problem.

End-of-turn and Save-ends stuff is more problematic, yes... I proposed a solution to one version of this a long time back (basically, subsume Ready under the Delay rules, where it can't be used to get around an End-of-turn clause). But as I expected, it doesn't come up... with decent players it mostly doesn't happen, and with problem players there are easier knobs to pull.

And it's pretty clear to me that you can't just wait for a debuff to expire; you can only ready in response to an action, and those aren't actions. I let players ready for "as soon as I can after this wears off" but that requires at least one action to happen in the next turn after their own... which can definitely prove problematic in some circumstances.

In terms of ready-as-an-interrupt... that's covered already, in different form. Look at Disrupting Strike, Delban's Deadly Attention, and a host of other immediate-interrupt effects; heck, look at Combat Challenge (+ Shield Push!) or Battle Awareness. Basically, each of those is a limited-use resource which lets you "ready" a specific action for a specific type of trigger, for use as an interrupt. It would be too powerful to give such things out as a general rule, so you have to buy 'em (as powers) and use 'em under those limitations - encounter if not daily use limits, and specific trigger circumstances.

If you look at Ready Action as encapsulating both the actual "Ready" action and also the existence of those powers, then readying - much like, say, tripping someone - takes an appropriately specific place in the rules. You can do it if you're built to do it... and by making them specific powers we can ensure that they're balanced and do not combo out of control (usually).
 

Now, as for the problems with readied actions, for the most part I don't see 'em. For example, keterys, you're thinking of immediate actions - opportunity attacks can be taken on any turn, including your own, if someone else provokes during it.

'One per Combatant’s Turn: You can take only one opportunity action during another combatant’s turn, but you can take any number during a round.'
'Once per Combatant’s Turn: You can take no more than one opportunity action on each other combatant’s turn. You can’t take an opportunity action on your own turn.'
 

The concept that they really didn't go into, which is the only thing that's poorly explained IMO, is what constitutes a "sub-action" ... what is a single increment of time/events which can't be broken up by a reaction.

I think this is the essential point.

Readied actions are a general case of Immediate Reactions (Immediate Interrupts aren't usable as they were in 3 because, as mentioned, that's just too powerful, and doesn't make much sense. 3.5 had the "when she starts to cast a spell, put a wall of force in the way (not to mention the "counterspell via massive damage" trick)" approach, but that's not appropriate for 4e). As such, they can respond to anything you can describe cogently, and can respond with any specific course of action, but the thing you're responding for must be something that you can make an Immediate Reaction after.

Specifically, you check for immediate reactions after (as cogently put above) every step of movement (where a teleport counts the entire movement as one step) and after every discrete action within a power (so multi-attacks can have immediate reactions to individual pieces within them; this is important for a lot of immediate reaction powers as well as for readied actions). Resolving an action looks like this:

10 start
20 read next discrete piece of this action. If there aren't any goto 70
30 check for immediate interrupts for this piece. If they exist, resolve them
40 resolve this action
50 check for readied actions and other immediate reactions to this discrete piece. If they exist, resolve them.
60 goto 20
70 we're done

So you can ready an action on any discrete piece -- "when any object is picked up"; "when I or my ally is attacked", "when an enemy enters a square adjacent to me or an ally", etc, and your response can be anything appropriate. If you declare a readied action that doesn't happen (and keep in mind that while the enemy gets to see that you're readied if they can see you, they don't generally know -what- you readied and what you're waiting for), you don't get that standard action and you get your turn again once your initiative comes up again (nor does your initiative move).

It's actually really clear and precise--and neither under nor overpowered.
 

I think this is the essential point.

Readied actions are a general case of Immediate Reactions (Immediate Interrupts aren't usable as they were in 3 because, as mentioned, that's just too powerful, and doesn't make much sense.

This is the problem with the 4E Ready. The game mechanics control what makes sense in some people's minds, not the result that the player is trying to achieve.


The Dragon has done a breath weapon. The entire party knows about it. The player of the Wizard, trying to be a good team player says:

"I ready an action to cast Globe of Invulnerability if he breathes to stop it"

Guess what? The ready action does nothing significant in 4E.


Granted, the PC Wizard should have been able to cast Wall of Ice to stop the breath weapon, but Wall of Ice stops line of sight without explicitly stopping line of effect (another strange rule or lack thereof).


Personally, I don't think that giving up a Standard Action in order for a foe to possibly (or possibly not) lose a Standard Action is all that overpowered. I have no idea where this overpowered notion comes from, but it has nothing to do with actual balance. There are all kinds of immediate interrupts in the game system and even ones that are not IIs like Opportunity Attacks. This is more of a "4E is designed this way, hence, it must be a good idea" POV.

The Shield spell can effectively take away an opponent's Standard Action and it is not even a Standard Action and loss of initiative to do so.
 

I won't even go into this new sub-phase concept.

Okay so here is how I think it works now correct me if and where I am wrong.

The ready a specific power and trigger selection portion all mostly make sense.

Next, you have two possible outcomes: trigger was tied to movement or trigger was tied to non-movement.

Resolving the trigger being tied to non-movement action is simple. Your action happens after the triggering action. Completely counter intuitive but that is it. I am not sure why you would not simply delay and then be able to select your power on the fly...

Resolving the Trigger being tied to movement is not as simple, your action happens after a move of 1 square because each square counts as a potential trigger for an immediate reaction. So when setting your movement trigger you have to define which square or squares you want to trigger your readied action. Additionally, if they do not move or move into one of your cited squares you lose your action. Another key point of confusion is if they use a movement power then you turn your readied action into an interrupt and are able to attack them before they activate their power. This is counter intuitive and seems very arbitrary in light of how all the other portions of this action work.

So things like: coming around the corner, moving within range, moving adjacent or shifting are acceptable triggers but these are not: moving away from you when you have a melee weapon, jumping behind complete cover, dropping prone, doing jumping jacks.

The movement to attack before the attacker attacks is very crude game design and seems like a very arcane way to get attacks to go off before attacks. Additionally, this makes weird cases where the player wants to shoot the enemy before they attack but to do that they have to tie it to their movement, the enemy decides not to move but still attacks with a ranged power and the readied action is lost! Conceptually what the readied action is for is to make an attack before the enemy attacks- at least that is what it is used for in many games. But not in 4e. The closet case exception of movement powers allowing the readied action to become an immediate interrupt is also poor in my opinion, it only adds to the confusion of how to adjudicate this action properly.

So there are still some unresolved issues:
Can you select more than one trigger? I heard one opinion on it so far and I would like to hear more. Some of the funkyness could be cleaned up by allowing multiple trigger actions, "If they attack or move into these defined squares I use my power."

I would like to hear some opinions on what should the play at the table be like? How should the DM approach announcing readied actions and how should the players announce them?

What are some good alternatives to this system? Simultaneous actions, interrupt actions, simply use delay, what else?
 

Resolving the trigger being tied to non-movement action is simple. Your action happens after the triggering action. Completely counter intuitive but that is it. I am not sure why you would not simply delay and then be able to select your power on the fly...

Because that would put your initiative after the target's and allow them to, say, take an attack then move away, or take multiple attacks, action point, remove themselves as a target, all kinds of things.

Aside: Have you ever seen one of the many, many movies or tv shows where someone holds someone hostage and threatens to kill someone and is shot, pushed away, whatever _before_ their ready action goes off? Cause it's pretty standard.

So when setting your movement trigger you have to define which square or squares you want to trigger your readied action.

In practice it's a lot simpler than that, but yes, you can define it as 'moves closer to the group', 'moves away', 'crosses this line of squares', but you can also do things like 'moves into a square I can charge'

Additionally, if they do not move or move into one of your cited squares you lose your action.

You say this like it's a bad thing. Is there a better option?

Another key point of confusion is if they use a movement power then you turn your readied action into an interrupt and are able to attack them before they activate their power. This is counter intuitive and seems very arbitrary in light of how all the other portions of this action work.

You aren't interrupting. Movement you're reacting to the move they just did. It doesn't matter what they do afterwards, you didn't interrupt it. For example, if someone uses Deft Strike and moves 1 square next to an enemy, and your readied 'shift back a square' triggers, then they can choose to move 1 more square to still attack. Or move somewhere else. Or use their attack on someone else other than the original target.

Additionally, this makes weird cases where the player wants to shoot the enemy before they attack but to do that they have to tie it to their movement

You don't have to - it's very effective tactic when used on melee only enemies, but a bad idea otherwise.

Conceptually what the readied action is for is to make an attack before the enemy attacks- at least that is what it is used for in many games.

So ready an action for 'If the enemy takes a hostile action'. Whether that's moving closer or readying a ranged weapon, the attack would go off.

in my opinion, it only adds to the confusion of how to adjudicate this action properly.

For what it's worth, there are a large number of people who aren't confused by the rule. You're being willfully resistant to understanding how it works because you don't like it. At least, as far as I can tell.

Can you select more than one trigger?

No. The wording is uniformly singular for picking the action or event. You can make a very broadly defined trigger, however. It's up to the DM as to how they want to limit the action, but technically you can have a trigger of 'Performs an action I dislike' or 'An enemy becomes a valid target my attack'

I would like to hear some opinions on what should the play at the table be like? How should the DM approach announcing readied actions and how should the players announce them?

Things like 'Hefts his weapon and eyes you warily' and 'Readies himself to attack' are generally clear enough I've found, but whatever is most fun for the group, as always.

What are some good alternatives to this system? Simultaneous actions, interrupt actions, simply use delay, what else?

Take powers like Disruptive Strike. Take proactive actions rather than reactive actions. Delay. Ready tactically. Use a house rule to have something like an opposed initiative roll for special cases, or just allow truly simultaneous actions where both attacks go off at once, etc.
 

Remove ads

Top