How the hell do readied actions work!

Because that would put your initiative after the target's and allow them to, say, take an attack then move away, or take multiple attacks, action point, remove themselves as a target, all kinds of things.
No it would not. Not if you jump in after the person right before the enemy.

Aside: Have you ever seen one of the many, many movies or tv shows where someone holds someone hostage and threatens to kill someone and is shot, pushed away, whatever _before_ their ready action goes off? Cause it's pretty standard.
In those movies covering means that you generally get the initiative against them, this is not the case with these rules. It is just different.

You aren't interrupting. Movement you're reacting to the move they just did. It doesn't matter what they do afterwards, you didn't interrupt it. For example, if someone uses Deft Strike and moves 1 square next to an enemy, and your readied 'shift back a square' triggers, then they can choose to move 1 more square to still attack. Or move somewhere else. Or use their attack on someone else other than the original target.
Please explain your interpretation of this passage then:
PHB said:
Note that an enemy might use a power that lets it move and then attack. If you readied an action to attack in response to that enemy’s movement, your readied action interrupts the movement, and you can attack before the enemy does.

So ready an action for 'If the enemy takes a hostile action'. Whether that's moving closer or readying a ranged weapon, the attack would go off.

No. The wording is uniformly singular for picking the action or event. You can make a very broadly defined trigger, however. It's up to the DM as to how they want to limit the action, but technically you can have a trigger of 'Performs an action I dislike' or 'An enemy becomes a valid target my attack'
Please explain your interpretation of this passage then:
PHB said:
Choose the action that will trigger your readied action. When that action occurs, you can use your readied action.

Things like 'Hefts his weapon and eyes you warily' and 'Readies himself to attack' are generally clear enough I've found, but whatever is most fun for the group, as always.
Okay, so the DM is not required to define the triggers then? The players can also say, "I heft my weapon and eye him warily"?
 

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One cannot ready an action to shoot the invisible Wizard (and possibly stun or kill him) if the Wizard suddenly becomes visible when he casts an attack spell.

The mechanic is totally flawed because it removes a significant percentage of the scenarios for which someone might want to ready.

Immediate Interrupt works better, even considering the corner cases that I can both attack and shift with my special readied action.
Actually, your example is exactly why immediate interrupt is totally flawed and makes no sense, essentially creating a paradox. How can you shoot the wizard when he "suddenly becomes visible when he casts an attack spell" on an interrupt which would specify that your action occurs prior to his, i.e. he actually hasn't yet become visible OR attacked?

Is he visible? Yes, because he attacked.
Has he attacked? Yes, and now he's visible.
Did you interrupt him? Yes, which occurs before his attack, thus he hasn't attacked and isn't visible.

Note how the current 4E Ready rules eliminates the paradox entirely. If only "immediate interrupt" were to disappear entirely. . .
 

No it would not. Not if you jump in after the person right before the enemy.

... what? Let's take two examples for a moment.
1) On init 8 Gar readies an attack against Dex making an attack. On init 5 Dex makes his attack, so Gar responds. Gar's initiative is set to 5 right before Dex's, so next round he gets another attack on Dex before Dex gets to go.
2) On init 8, Gar delays until he knows if Dex is going to attack. On init 5, Dex attacks. Gar comes out of delay and makes his own attack. Next round, Dex goes _before_ Gar instead of the reverse.

In those movies covering means that you generally get the initiative against them, this is not the case with these rules. It is just different.

Seems pretty similar to me. Someone has a hostage, readies an attack, fails to take the attack because they were killed, disarmed, knocked unconscious, whatever. 'Readying' as a concept is fallible. Even readying to shoot someone and you get the shot off can miss if that person's movement surprises you and it's certainly the case in a melee that you can have two people next to each other and one can decide to swing if the other does, so the other starts to swing... and what do you know, the one who started to swing first often lands first or at least is sometimes not second. Just physics there, really.


Please explain your interpretation of this passage then: Note that an enemy might use a power that lets it move and then attack. If you readied an action to attack in response to that enemy’s movement, your readied action interrupts the movement, and you can attack before the enemy does.

Please explain to me which part of the rule you don't understand, or what thing I said that wasn't clear, and I'd be happy to do so. I gave a Deft Strike example, even.

Please explain your interpretation of this passage then: Choose the action that will trigger your readied action. When that action occurs, you can use your readied action.

Again, what part don't you understand? It is indeed a singular use of all words involved, so clearly 'The enemy does _this_ -or- the enemy does _that_' is not valid. You could say 'The enemy takes any action other than a free action' if you want them to stay still, though.

Okay, so the DM is not required to define the triggers then? The players can also say, "I heft my weapon and eye him warily"?

Of course the DM defines the trigger, just as the player does. That doesn't mean the player knows what that trigger is, any more than the monster knows what the monster's trigger is - when a monster uses an ability, do you go 'It uses Howl of the Ancients, at +12 to hit Fort, I rolled a 5 so I guess that barely misses you. It's recharge 5 or 6, so I'll be rolling that again next round' or do you describe the monster 'howling horrifically as spirits emerge and whip past you, claws tearing through and... barely missing you'. Well, maybe neither and somewhere in between, but it's up to the table how much information they require - most tables I've played at, the player states their ready and the DM doesn't, and the group works together to ensure everyone has fun.

If that's not the case for you, I'd advise you to read through the DMG a bit more to get the right feel for things. You definitely want to give the players the information to know that it's readied for some action, but neither side should innately know 'Well, if I pull out a bow I'll be safe' or 'If I attack someone else, their action is wasted'. If the DM can't cope with not exploiting his knowledge of their ready, he could have the player write it out or intentionally trigger it some percentage of the time.Whatever it takes to have a fun game.
 

Actually, your example is exactly why immediate interrupt is totally flawed and makes no sense, essentially creating a paradox. How can you shoot the wizard when he "suddenly becomes visible when he casts an attack spell" on an interrupt which would specify that your action occurs prior to his, i.e. he actually hasn't yet become visible OR attacked?

Is he visible? Yes, because he attacked.
Has he attacked? Yes, and now he's visible.
Did you interrupt him? Yes, which occurs before his attack, thus he hasn't attacked and isn't visible.

Note how the current 4E Ready rules eliminates the paradox entirely. If only "immediate interrupt" were to disappear entirely. . .

There is no paradox is one thinks cinematically.

The Wizard starts to become visible because he is casting an attack spell and because I was ready for it, I beat him to the punch.

Classic cinematic.

FRPGs are not about total plausibility, in fact, far from it.


Another example. I shoot you if you draw your weapon. You use a power that allows you to draw as part of your attack action. My ready action is useless. No cinematics or fun there. Just game mechanics getting in the way of fun.


Note how the current 4E Ready rules almost completely eliminates the need for a Ready action.

In over a year of 4E gaming, I have almost never seen Ready done once the players understood how lame the mechanics are. I have seen Delays.
 

I won't even go into this new sub-phase concept.

Okay so here is how I think it works now correct me if and where I am wrong.

The ready a specific power and trigger selection portion all mostly make sense.

Next, you have two possible outcomes: trigger was tied to movement or trigger was tied to non-movement.

Resolving the trigger being tied to non-movement action is simple. Your action happens after the triggering action. Completely counter intuitive but that is it. I am not sure why you would not simply delay and then be able to select your power on the fly...

OK, you're fine so far. One MINOR note, if an enemy uses a power that makes multiple attacks you can react to the first (or second etc) attack and do something before the rest of the attacks go off, just like the example with movement where you can react to any individual square of the movement. See PHB p268 for a full description of what you can do with an immediate reaction.

As others have said, your readied action HAS to come after the other creature's action, otherwise it would not make sense. The bad guy is holding a dagger to the victim's throat. Bad guy attacks victim. Pazzap! I shoot him before he can act. Not going to happen. If you want to shoot him before he acts, JUST SHOOT. In point of fact a "standoff" situation is actually NOT COMBAT because nobody is actually attacking anyone, its a status quo situation. If one or the other side decides to act, then initiative is rolled and you either act first or not. Admittedly its possible a bad guy might hold a dagger to someone's throat in the MIDDLE of a battle, but then THEY are readying (or delaying or something). In that case YOU get to act first. There is never a problem with it being a reaction if the rules are used exactly as intended.

Delaying is totally different from readying, though it may accomplish similar goals at times. You can only stop delaying at the start of a specific creature's turn, so you don't know what they are going to do. Delaying is normally used when you want to have an ally act first and then you're going to do something. Its mostly for those situations where some activity requires 2 characters to cooperate and the one that needs to go first is not first in the initiative order or something like that.

Resolving the Trigger being tied to movement is not as simple, your action happens after a move of 1 square because each square counts as a potential trigger for an immediate reaction. So when setting your movement trigger you have to define which square or squares you want to trigger your readied action. Additionally, if they do not move or move into one of your cited squares you lose your action. Another key point of confusion is if they use a movement power then you turn your readied action into an interrupt and are able to attack them before they activate their power. This is counter intuitive and seems very arbitrary in light of how all the other portions of this action work.

Mechanically your understanding is fine here except there is no "special rule" for when they are going to use their NEXT action to attack you after the one they are finishing now. You simply are reacting to the movement, then they attack, no special rule. The only time it is at all "special" is if they were say charging you, which is a move and an attack all in one action. In that case you're still just reacting the last square of movement they performed and that reaction happens before the next "sub-step" (the attack part of the charge).

So things like: coming around the corner, moving within range, moving adjacent or shifting are acceptable triggers but these are not: moving away from you when you have a melee weapon, jumping behind complete cover, dropping prone, doing jumping jacks.

The actual definition of what is an acceptable trigger is left a little bit flexible. The DM has the deciding vote on how vague the trigger can be. As far as your specific list, all of those things are potentially valid triggers since they all require the enemy to use an action. Note that if an enemy runs away from you, you could have readied a charge as your readied action and run up to them and hit them after they go one square.

The movement to attack before the attacker attacks is very crude game design and seems like a very arcane way to get attacks to go off before attacks. Additionally, this makes weird cases where the player wants to shoot the enemy before they attack but to do that they have to tie it to their movement, the enemy decides not to move but still attacks with a ranged power and the readied action is lost!

But like I said before, either you should have just attacked him, the situation is "status quo" and initiative determines who gets the jump on whom, or its a situation where the enemy SHOULD get go go first. There is no situation which is not covered by ready an action that you should be allowed to perform and are not.

Honestly I've designed both software and rules systems many times and I can't come up with a better way to have this work, nor do other games have better ways that I'm aware of and I've played a lot of RPGs.

Conceptually what the readied action is for is to make an attack before the enemy attacks- at least that is what it is used for in many games. But not in 4e. The closet case exception of movement powers allowing the readied action to become an immediate interrupt is also poor in my opinion, it only adds to the confusion of how to adjudicate this action properly.

As I said above, the ready an action is NOT intended to resolve the situation of a standoff where you want to get off a shot first. That is resolved by initiative because a standoff is not (yet) combat. The example/hint in the Ready an Action section may have confused you, but the rule itself is really easy to use once you understand it ;)

So there are still some unresolved issues:
Can you select more than one trigger?

Probably not, but you can probably state a trigger which is either broad enough to cover all possibilities or one which will make the difference moot. For example you could reasonably trigger on "the orc does ANYTHING at all except breathe".

I heard one opinion on it so far and I would like to hear more. Some of the funkyness could be cleaned up by allowing multiple trigger actions, "If they attack or move into these defined squares I use my power."

I would like to hear some opinions on what should the play at the table be like? How should the DM approach announcing readied actions and how should the players announce them?

What are some good alternatives to this system? Simultaneous actions, interrupt actions, simply use delay, what else?

There are no good alternatives that I know of. Here are a couple of situations and how they would work out at my table:

The party is behind a door and something is trying to break through the door.
Fighter: I step up to the door and ready Crushing Blow to attack whatever is on the other side as soon as the door opens.
DM: OK, you are in front of the door with your axe ready.
(Ogre on the other side of the door breaks down door with a STR roll)
DM: The door collapses, a troll stands in front of you. You Can use Crushing Blow now.
Fighter: (rolls d20) etc...

The evil bad guy has a dagger to a hostage's throat. The ranger has a bead drawn on the bad guy.
Paladin: Sir! Pray do not slay that innocent girl. I'll duel you in fair combat instead. (attempts a diplomacy check and fails).
DM: The villain laughs. "I'm not fooled by your tricks. Say good bye to your friend."
DM: OK, the bad guy decides to act, everyone roll initiative. (figures out the init order, the bad guy goes first).
DM: The bad guy cuts the girl's throat...
(alternately, the ranger goes first)
Ranger: I attack with Split the Tree (bad guy dies).

I can't swear there isn't some situation I've never imagined where readying will fail, but I am about 95% sure its actually a pretty bulletproof rule. Its worst feature is its possible to cheat someone out of an OA/II if you use it just right or avoid certain penalties, but the DM is always free to just say "no" to that kind of thing if it gets out of hand.
 

There is no paradox is one thinks cinematically.The Wizard starts to become visible because he is casting an attack spell and because I was ready for it, I beat him to the punch.

You're a soldier looking for a sniper, ready to shoot when he reveals himself.

You see a muzzle flash, hear a crack... shoot towards where those came from. Somehow I'm not seeing your shot getting to him first.

Classic cinematic.
Not from what I can tell. Not at all. Most films the invisible person wins and the non-visible person flails around reacting to where they were... at least until someone effectively readies for "I hear him move nearby" then stabs where they hear 'em.

Another example. I shoot you if you draw your weapon. You use a power that allows you to draw as part of your attack action. My ready action is useless. No cinematics or fun there. Just game mechanics getting in the way of fun.
The target had a special ability that allowed them to instantly draw and fire - you weren't ready for it with your own negating ability (ex: Disruptive Strike), so your shot goes off second.

Pretty cinematic. Still fun, as long as not everyone in the world has that ability (and very few things do)

Note how the current 4E Ready rules almost completely eliminates the need for a Ready action.
I see people ready actions quite frequently in LFR games, and have used them a number of times to coordinate attacks with allies, ready for when a creature was more vulnerable than it currently is, guard an area by intercepting a creature, etc.

It doesn't do what you want it do, sure... but your way would have nontrivial harmful effects on the game, particularly in response to melee-only creatures.

In over a year of 4E gaming, I have almost never seen Ready done once the players understood how lame the mechanics are. I have seen Delays.
Never seen someone Ready to attack when they had a flanker? Ready to get around the duration of an effect? (for example, an enemy Monday night that I ran had insubstantial until the start of its turn frequently, so they discussed readying to attack it on its own turn rather than taking the half damage)
 
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I won't even go into this new sub-phase concept.
It's not new -- it's the rules. "Action" as ready is concerned isn't the same thing as the use of a power -- a power will typically involve multiple discrete actions, performed in order, and a readied action (or any other Immediate Reaction) can take place between them.

Next, you have two possible outcomes: trigger was tied to movement or trigger was tied to non-movement.
There's no real difference here, except that each square of movement is a separate trigger (ignoring "if an enemy moves more than two spaces" or such)

Resolving the trigger being tied to non-movement action is simple. Your action happens after the triggering action. Completely counter intuitive but that is it. I am not sure why you would not simply delay and then be able to select your power on the fly...
Aside from the "because you get to act before their minor/move actions" issue, because the rules here aren't what you think they are.

There are, in fact, very few reasons to ready an action in response to an attack (usually, you're better off just acting or reading in response to movement), but immediate reaction powers that respond to an attack work well as advertised--the Avenger 2nd level teleport can get you out of harms' way before an elite's second attack hits you or before the dogthing that just knocked you prone gets to maul you. OTOH, readies in response to preparation (of any sort) can be very effective; movement is an obvious case here, but in a tense situation, "hit him if he draws a weapon" can be quite useful, and there's no way that the foe can draw a weapon and -not- pull the ready (even with a power that draws the weapon and then attacks, those are two separate actions as far as the Interrupt rules are concerned).

Resolving the Trigger being tied to movement is not as simple, your action happens after a move of 1 square because each square counts as a potential trigger for an immediate reaction. So when setting your movement trigger you have to define which square or squares you want to trigger your readied action.
True. But you can specify a really broad net here. You don't have to specify specific squares; you can say "adjacent to an ally", or "moves closer to any of us", or anythign that actually covers your intentions.

Another key point of confusion is if they use a movement power then you turn your readied action into an interrupt and are able to attack them before they activate their power.
If one actually understands how interrupts work, this isn't nearly as difficult. There's no real difference between using a Readied action to push someone away during a charge before they make an attack (though if they have enough movement, they can just keep going) and using an Immediate Reaction to move away between an elite's shield bash and their main attack; in both cases you're moving after the action you're responding to, but still during the power you're responding to. All Immediate actions can happen during powers; the difference is merely whether the explicit thing you're responding to happens, and then the immediate action goes off, or whether your immediate action rolls back the thing and does its own thing, then the immediate action happens and might not work as well as originally intended (or at all). There's a big difference between "II: gain +4 to AC when you're hit by an attack (thus, you're no longer hit by an attack)" and "IR: gain +4 to AC when you're hit by an attack (you're still hit by the attack, but might avoid the followup attacks, if any)."

So things like: coming around the corner, moving within range, moving adjacent or shifting are acceptable triggers but these are not: moving away from you when you have a melee weapon, jumping behind complete cover, dropping prone, doing jumping jacks.
Moving away from you when you have a melee weapon works fine if it's a reach weapon -- you get your opportunity attack (which does move at Interrupt speed) and then you can make an attack with them one square away from you. They do something, you do something.
Dropping prone works great; they drop prone, then you hit them.
Jumping behind complete cover can be worded right (jumps toward cover; tries to take cover) and if so you'll get them in midair before the jump completes, but they do get one free square of movement before you get to go.
Not really sure what's wrong with jumping jacks here. They do jumping jacks, then after the first one you hit them.

The movement to attack before the attacker attacks is very crude game design and seems like a very arcane way to get attacks to go off before attacks.
Only if you don't take it as a specific point in a more general case -- that actions in the Immediate system are fairly small things (individual lines in a power), not big things (entire uses of a power). As such, they clarify that individual squares of movement are triggers, rather than the movement entirely (thus a polearm fighter can get a good wack at an enemy who goes through their area of control, if they specify a reasonable ready, whereas if the entirety of movement were one action they couldn't).

Conceptually what the readied action is for is to make an attack before the enemy attacks- at least that is what it is used for in many games. But not in 4e.
I think this is really a 3eism. I know of no other game with detailed readied actions, and I think the habit of saying "I ready an action to attack him before he attacks" comes from 3e. Plus if you just want to attack before they attack, you attack on your own turn.

In 3e, you had some wierd and wonky cases where you're ready actions specifically because interrupting the enemy was more powerful than not --enough to be worth messing with your initiative and mabye losing your action. You could disarm in response to an attack (or knock prone); inflict massive damage to make a spell fizzle, etc. That's all gone -- you do that stuff with powers now, so readied actions instead serve a powerful but more limited toolkit.

In 4e, I think what a readied action is usually for is for doing something reasonable when you -can't- attack. An Immobilized melee specialist could throw something -- or they could ready an action to hit anything in range. A ranged specialist could approach an enemy running flyby attacks and try to flush them out (and probably get surrounded and ganked) or they could ready an action to attack the enemy once they enter view. A wizard, low on hitpoints and not willing to take the fight to the enemy, can ready an action to thunderwave any enemy that gets within two squares of her, sacrificing her attack for a more defensible position (and so on).

So there are still some unresolved issues:
Can you select more than one trigger? I heard one opinion on it so far and I would like to hear more. Some of the funkyness could be cleaned up by allowing multiple trigger actions, "If they attack or move into these defined squares I use my power."

I think this is a GM judgement, really. IMO, readied actions should be accepted if they are a comphehensible single thought (I'd be cool with "if they attack or move", personally) and rejected if they're more complicated than that (and, of course, you have to specify the action your'e using in response, so there's only limited flexibility there).

I would like to hear some opinions on what should the play at the table be like? How should the DM approach announcing readied actions and how should the players announce them?

What are some good alternatives to this system? Simultaneous actions, interrupt actions, simply use delay, what else?

In general, you need to specify what you're doing when you ready an action -- it can be pretty open ended ("if he makes a threatening move"), but it needs to be clear enough to rule on. Players need to specify exactly what their readied action is (except for PVP, where they need to tell the GM exactly what their readied action is); but a character only knows that the opponent (if visible) is readied for somethng, not what they're waiting for. (The GM needs to know the details of readied actions to act as a referee, but monsters are -not- the GM; nor are players).

I'm not about to suggest house rules here, but I do think there are situations where Immediate powers are much more powerful than readied actions (that's why they're powers, after all); there are also plenty of cases where one is better off using delay than a readied action (but not all of them, by any means). If you know what you want to do and when (but can't do it yet), you might want a readied action. If you want to respond to anything, but don't have something very specific in mind, just Delay.
 

You're a soldier looking for a sniper, ready to shoot when he reveals himself.

You see a muzzle flash, hear a crack... shoot towards where those came from. Somehow I'm not seeing your shot getting to him first.

Pulling in a real world "plausible" example does little to discuss cinematics.

In the real world, someone cannot jump 10 feet straight up with a running start. In DND, one can.

Never seen someone Ready to attack when they had a flanker? Ready to get around the duration of an effect? (for example, an enemy Monday night that I ran had insubstantial until the start of its turn frequently, so they discussed readying to attack it on its own turn rather than taking the half damage)

You forget. Not everyone plays at the higher level that can be found by passionate players on web sites.

Many people play recreationally. Recreational play often does not have the same level of scrutinizing of the rules for every possible advantage that play on the Internet can achieve.

With recreational play, Ready is more of a dud than it is for rules lawyers and Internet players.
 

Pulling in a real world "plausible" example does little to discuss cinematics.

Hats off to you if you've seen that in real life, but I've seen it in movies myself. (Edit: and video games, for that matter. Thinking about it from a video game perspective, actually, your theory that your attack would go off is totally crazy to me. Much more so than when I wasn't thinking in that perspective. One guy reveals himself only when he attacks, another is waiting for that... you'd have to time travel to interrupt that)

In the real world, someone cannot jump 10 feet straight up with a running start. In DND, one can.
DC 50, so not really. I mean, sure, with a spell they could, but in real life someone with a device could do the same. And honestly I'd hope that, say, Hercules could, if we're just comparing demigods now.

You forget. Not everyone plays at the higher level that can be found by passionate players on web sites.
I play with three groups of players. One has 4 people in it, one about a dozen, and the other a few dozen. In all three groups people do that. In the first, they don't do any internet stuff. I mean, they barely level their characters and I have to remind a couple they have non-at-will attack powers. Serious beer and pretzel type stuff. The second group is a mix of completely casuals who are just playing cause it's what the group is doing and hardcore tacticians. It's entirely possible the former picked up doing it because of the latter, but it's not so hard a concept for a rogue to go 'I want to sneak attack. Hmm, the fighter could give me flank, can I ready for that?'

It's quite common in the last group, which is just a massive pool of players who meet at a gaming store where 3-4 tables are run every week. Again, maybe some figured it out and spread it to others, but... is that abnormal?

Many people play recreationally.
Indeed, like many of my friends.

With recreational play, Ready is more of a dud than it is for rules lawyers and Internet players.
Haven't heard any complaints about it from my strictly recreational group, actually. They asked how it worked, were told, and went merrily on their way.

Though one of them is _still_ baffled by the whole combat challenge thing on her fighter, I'll admit :P
 

Good points all around.

AbdulAlhazred:
Delay actions are taken during combat, and as far as I know they cannot be taken before a initiative is rolled.

I don't really want to get into resumes on games we have played and made but suffice the rules could be quite a bit more clear and intuitive in this area.

Your opinion is that two triggers cannot exist, but very broad descriptive triggers may. And you glean this from the singular wording. It also says the word "action" so that could by literalist extension be construed to when they take a "move" action or when they take "standard" action or similarly they could be defined as the actions on page 289, when he takes the squeeze action I attack him, when he does a magic missile action I attack...

Keterys:
Obviously in a 1 on 1 battle delaying to act before an enemy will not work. In certain situations simply delaying is a better tactic than readying. I think you see that, even though really conceptually what you are doing is readying.

Also on those passages from the PHB I was looking for your interpretation on those passages and what they mean to you and how they factor into your judgment and adjudication of the readying rules. My understanding or misunderstanding of them has no bearing. I still wouldn't mind your opinion on them.
 

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