Appeals to emotion are problematic, but so is ignoring both the parsimony principle and the copernican principle and adopting a no-true-scotsman stance as to what constitutes language
How to address racism in a fantasy setting without it dragging down the game?
- Thread starter Derren
- Start date
Appeals to emotion are problematic, but so is ignoring both the parsimony principle and the copernican principle and adopting a no-true-scotsman stance as to what constitutes language
I've been talking about human language this entire time. in the example I gave virtually every human capable of using human language can pass that test. can we say the same for dophins?
Beleriphon
Totally Awesome Pirate Brain
Not sure of any way to effectively test that that doesn't run into a problem of learned responses. I suppose we could say the same thing of ourselves, can we really prove we know what a dolphin is telling us to the dolphin?
I'm not sure I actually follow here. the point is humans are capable of using language to discuss things that aren't in their immediate presence, in detail. some animals can communicate similar ideas, but are still lacking in what they can communicate. a lot of people bring up bees and how they can tell other bees what direction to go for food, but afaik it's never been observed they can tell other bees what exactly it is they're telling others to go to.
Seems like an unnecessarily small definition of language, which is just another way of saying verbal communication. If your communicating your ideas and emotions your using language, and you have language, otherwise you couldn't be using it. You might have a small vocabulary and you might have a huge one but either way you still have language. Whether that language is native to you or not is irrelevant.
The idea that the need for interpretation somehow invalidates the communication as a language is just silly. All communication requires some interpretation on the part of everyone involved. And all of the interpretation is imprecise.
Even among humans with the same native language, level of education and cultural background mis-interpretation of meaning is extremely common and the source of much of our interpersonal conflict. Never mind 2 or more people with differing levels of language precision or culture.
The idea that suddenly I'm not really using language because the guy in the french restaurant when i'm on vacation has to try to interpret my meaning is a little ludicrous.
The same way that my dog is definitely using his language however limited when he goes to the backdoor and whines to tell me he needs out. Thats his verbal communication. His vocab is definitely limited. Pretty much hungry, happy, angry and gotta piss. But he's quite proficient at making his thoughts and desires known with it.
The idea that the need for interpretation somehow invalidates the communication as a language is just silly. All communication requires some interpretation on the part of everyone involved. And all of the interpretation is imprecise.
Even among humans with the same native language, level of education and cultural background mis-interpretation of meaning is extremely common and the source of much of our interpersonal conflict. Never mind 2 or more people with differing levels of language precision or culture.
The idea that suddenly I'm not really using language because the guy in the french restaurant when i'm on vacation has to try to interpret my meaning is a little ludicrous.
The same way that my dog is definitely using his language however limited when he goes to the backdoor and whines to tell me he needs out. Thats his verbal communication. His vocab is definitely limited. Pretty much hungry, happy, angry and gotta piss. But he's quite proficient at making his thoughts and desires known with it.
There are plenty of people who are also quite lacking in what they can communicate. I wouldnt say they dont have a language.
dragoner
KosmicRPG.com
Like me. haha
What about people with bad learning disabilities
not really, I'm talking about human language specifically.
NOPE, a lot of languages are signed, not verbal.
it's not about the ability to communicate at all. a cat might get food meowing constantly. another cat might get food by batting it's owner's face. or not, a cat might have a different problem and use the same method because they realize that's a way of getting their owners attention. what's at question here is are these primates cognisizing language the same way humans do, or did they just find a way to get food from their caretakers.
I never said interpretation invalidates any of this. what I'm saying is the need for the interpreter to tell us exactly what they're saying is a problem. if Koko was taught ASL it should follow that any ASL signer should be able to communicate with her through ASL.
yes, there are things such as jargon, or dialect. but assuming we have two speakers of English, say one from America and one from India, it's reasonable to assume they can communicate using English without having to strain themselves. if they don't understand something the other does they can explain concepts to one another, like "in this part of America, we usually say package instead of parcel". this was literally me and a roommate I had a few years ago, we got along just fine.
what? how exactly are you ordering that you feel I would interpret you're not using language?
is there a discernible difference whether or not he wants to go out to just walk or needs to pee? can you have a deep discussion about politics with your dog?
neither would I. this misses the point.
I mean you're apparently capable of understanding what others are saying and can reply in a way that shows you feel he is describing someone like you.
how bad? afaik the only real barrier for a human to learn language is severe brain damage or underdevelopment. there's a lot of debate over whether or not the only time someone can really learn language is at a very young age. as you can imagine there's a lot of ethical issues with isolating a young child from any sort of linguistic communication. the only real examples we have are children who were abused and isolated at a very young age until they were in their teens, with almost no language input. they had difficulty learning language, but even then questions such as whether or not they were malnourished or if their trauma has affected their brain too severely makes that hard to figure.
the only cases we have that aren't outright abusive are kids with congenital deafness who grow up in a family that only uses spoken language, but iirc they are capable with learning how to sign at a later age, just maybe not as "articulate" as someone who learned how to sign at a very young age.
Of course its about whether you can communicate. Thats all language is, communication. If they want food and they found a way to make a noise or sign something to express that then its language.
Thats all we're doing with each other. Grunting rhythmically, and using body language, both subtle and overt to communicate our thoughts and desires. Thats language.
And yes it is about interpretation. Your saying that because the chimps teacher is interpreting then it doesnt count because any random signer should be able sit down and understand just as well as the teacher, if I understand you correctly. But thats nonsense.
I have a friend whose husband is learning english, its really broken and he still mixes a lot of japanese in with his sentences. In order for us to understand anything complicated from him she still has to help interpret a lot of what he's saying. Because she knows what he knows of english and what he doesnt and knows him well enough to fill in the blanks. I'm a native english speaker. I cannot sit down and have a conversation with him with full understanding without her to interpret japanese and bridge the gap. Just like the chimps need someone who can sit down and understand chimp, and bridge that gap. It doesnt mean my friends husband doesnt understand the english he can say anymore then it means the chimp isnt understanding sign language it is using.
And in the same way both also need a go between to express a full understanding in the non native language. But doesnt mean they arent using language. Their understanding is incomplete, and their mastery is small, but its still deliberately used and understood language.
Travel a bit more. Theres plenty of native english speakers, whether they be fluent in Australian english or the latest version of ebonics where its actually a hell of a struggle to understand just what they are trying to communicate. Facebook comments are another excellent source of the unintelligible gibberish that passes for english among an unfortunate percentage of our population now. Yet they arguably still have language, no matter how primitive it may be.
Yes theres a big difference. You can definitely tell why he wants to go out. And I talk to my dog about politics all the time, usually during the nightly news. He doesnt usually do much but stare at me quietly and try to distract me into doing something else, but I assume thats because he's smarter then me and knows to just avoid the whole thing as a bad use of his time and energy.
Similar Threads
AD6_gamerati_skyscraper
Upcoming Releases
-
April 16 2024 -
May 31 2024 -
June 3 2024 -
June 4 2024 -
June 18 2024 -
July 16 2024 -
September 17 2024 -
October 1 2024 -
November 12 2024 -
February 18 2025
