How to apply damage?

[Nail]

By your logic, Nail, a critical sneak attack will deal the same amount of sneak attack damage, but subtract twice the strength penalty from that damage. That's just wrong.

Err...how so?

A critical does: (Weap + Str + Enhance + Other Special stuff) * some mutliplier. (Of course certain kinds of damage, like sneak attack and weapon energy damage, are not added into the "special stuff" variable.)

So, yes, that negative strength modifier is added in at least twice. Them's the rules, bud.

 

[Nail]

1d4-3(str)+2(enh)[min. 1] + 1d6 (flaming) +2d6 (sneak, when relevant)

I hate to shake the rule stick at you, but that's not what the rules say. They don't specify an order of operations like that. They make no distinction in the type of damage a weapon does when concidering the "minimum of 1" question.

Moreover, even if we just used common sense and arm waving (in a rules forum? Is that allowed?), we'd probably come to the conclusion that only energy damage can't be "reduced" by a negative strength modifier. The number of times this special case might come up is so low...it's probably not worth writing a special rule for.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Err...how so?

A critical does: (Weap + Str + Enhance + Other Special stuff) * some mutliplier. (Of course certain kinds of damage, like sneak attack and weapon energy damage, are not added into the "special stuff" variable.)

So, yes, that negative strength modifier is added in at least twice. Them's the rules, bud.

My point is if our attacking with a dagger for 1d4-3 points of damage, with a +1d6 sneak attack, by your equation this is how the damage would work. Let's assume 3 points of damage for the sneak attack and 3 points of damage from the dagger (all pre-str penalty)

Regular attack: (3 (dagger) + 3 (sneak)) - 3 (str) = 3 points of damage.
Critical hit: (6 (dagger) + 3 (sneak)) - 6 (str) = 3 points of damage.

The critical hit fails to increase the total damage at all.

By my equation:
normal hit: (1 (dagger - 3 (str)) + 3 (sneak) = 4
Critical hit: (2 (2 daggers - 6 (str)) + 3 (sneak) = 5

The critical actually does something.

 

[Nail]

...assume 3 points of damage for the sneak attack and 3 points of damage from the dagger (all pre-str penalty)

Regular attack: (3 (dagger) + 3 (sneak)) - 3 (str) = 3 points of damage.
Critical hit: (6 (dagger) + 3 (sneak)) - 6 (str) = 3 points of damage.

Before we go on, a correction. The damage is not mutiplied in the way you demonstrate.

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

IOW, you don't roll the damage once, then multiply. You do roll the damage dice multiple times. Got it?

********
Now we can look at our poor Rog 1 with Str 5 (what, by Thor's beard, is this guy doing out in public? ). If he criticals with sneak attack with a dagger. His damage would look like this:

• Rolls 2d4
• subtracts (-3 * 2) 6
• Adds 1d6
• Minimum of 1 hp of damage

...so, on average, he does 2.5 hp of damage, with a maximum of 8 hp of damage.

On a "normal" sneak attack, this same rogue does an average of 3.0 hp damage, and a maximum of 4 hp of damage.

So although his average is slightly lower with a critical, his maximum damage is doubled from a critical. Wacky, but true. And really, what's the problem? Why cry about it?

 

[MerakSpielman]

(I was assuming 3 points of damage for each roll.)

I'm just saying that if the str penalty is modified by a crit, and the sneak attack isn't, then the str penalty should in no way apply to the crit.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Just to make sure I know what I'm arguing about, you were arguing to subtract the strength penalty to damage after the sneak attack was added to it, right,

like this:

• Rolls 2d4
• Adds 1d6
• subtracts (-3 * 2) 6
• Minimum of 1 hp of damage

not what you posted:

• Rolls 2d4
• subtracts (-3 * 2) 6
• Adds 1d6
• Minimum of 1 hp of damage

 

[dulsin]

Here is how I would judge it in my game.

Any damage that does not get multiplied for a criticle hit is not concidered for the weapons minimum damage.

yes - Enhancment
yes - Str
yes - Curse
no - Flaming
yes - Weapon Specialization
no - Sneek attack

 

[Nail]

Just to make sure I know what I'm arguing about, you were arguing to subtract the strength penalty to damage after the sneak attack was added to it, right,

like this:

• Rolls 2d4
• Adds 1d6
• subtracts (-3 * 2) 6
• Minimum of 1 hp of damage

not what you posted:

• Rolls 2d4
• subtracts (-3 * 2) 6
• Adds 1d6
• Minimum of 1 hp of damage

Aack.

Right. As you say. See, I was just carrying the negative number thru.

The point is that the rules don't say you need to keep the damage types separate for the "minimum damage", and it's probably easier (and safer) to not make that distinction.

I'm envisioning an army of thousands of diminitive creatures with one level of rogue causing untold damage with their holy toothpicks and Str 1.

 

[MerakSpielman]

If they're sneak attacking, those diminutive holy toothpicks are stabbing into your vulnerable spots - say, some major blood vessels in your neck? I have no problem with it.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Of course, diminutive creatures do not threaten an area... so they can't get flanking. Sneak attack won't come up as often as it will with more regular-sized people.