How to challenge a high powered group?

[Dark Dragon]

If you just want a tough fight, try to advance monsters. But be careful about the new CR, it might be too low. I did that several times and it turned out that the CR easily could be up to 5 higher. A fully advanced legendary tiger with maxed out hide skills and a surprise round killed two level 20 PCs in three rounds, rendered one unconcious and forced a fourth PC to retreat. The monster failed a save (rolled a 1) vs the cleric's Implosion spell...Later, the party encountered two of these creatures, but the group was prepared and attacked the monsters from a safe distance. No casualties, the monsters retreated after some combat rounds.

Other option: Add templates and/or classes. But the same here for the CR. A half-fiendish old Red Dragon becomes far more dangerous due to the spells gained by the half-fiend template (Blasphemy at CL 37 WILL wipe out a level 23 party although the dragon is ONLY around CR 24...)...

 

[jodyjohnson]

1. If parties of that level are allowed to prepare fully against a known opponent they will wipe the floor with it (especially if the opponent is unprepared). I consider these the 'gimme' encounters to let the party show how powerful they are.

2. When the opponents and PCs switch places in #1 it's usually a challenging encounter. If the PCs flee (teleports, etc.) every time they are jumped then maybe you're opponents should do the same. This may rapidly dissolve into a exercise of frustration -- then call a truce on the whole Buff/Scry/Teleport thing.

3. Up encounters per day. Increase opponents per encounter. If you think one dragon CR+4 is a tough challenge make it 8 CR-2 creatures with a mix of weakness and strengths.

4. Massively increase encounters per day (during missions/adventures) but make most of them weak and not worth the time (CR-8). About 6 even challenge encounters per day against a high level party of 6 (plus a dozen weak encounters worth marginal XP including traps, puzzles). No matter what. None of this 1-4 Fight/Rest/1-4 Fight/Rest stuff. That's for the low levels. If they run away early, hit them anyway. Against casters it has to be a war of attrition; or encounters which negate their abilities (and these are not recommended).

If they complain then they are probably being challenged.

5. Have a rival group of adventurers which are always one or two steps behind the party. They are not as strong as the party but clever, tenacious, and opportunistic - but not evil. If the party lets up early the other group swoops in.

If they complain about not being the stars of the show, maybe their characters should start adventuring in a way which makes them the stars -- risk taking, allowing themselves to be challenged, role playing through adversity, and maybe not just killing everything that stands in their way.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Heh. Best "single" opponent to deal with this group: a summoner. This can either be a pure caster or it can be one of the more powerful outsiders that have spellcasting powers as well.

Summon a couple of huge air elementals; high movement rate, good stats, fairly durable. Send the elementals in en-masse and have each one grab a PC with flyby attack and take off in a different direction, that should end up with the PCs being several hundred feet apart and possibly out of sight depending on terrain.

Each of the elementals goes to a designated location where two or three moderately tough summoned creatures are waiting. (An 18th level summoner should have enough duration to pull this off though the first summons may only be around for 5-6 rounds once the fight starts) If each of those characters is facing a huge air and a couple of 10-12HD outsiders they will be in serious trouble, especially if those outsiders are instructed to use their Dispel Magic spell(-like) abilities to counter anything the casters try.

Once the first one's loose and they start teaming up they will quickly mop up their opponents *BUT* they will have no freaking clue what just transpired. If the summoner has a minion like an Improved Familiar that can use magic items (quasit, mephit, etc), the stealthed familiar can send a threat every few hours at the party to keep them from resting while the summoner gets back to full strength.


Other options are:
Golems. Those things are highly resilient to magic and a moderately common construct due to the books of golem construction.

Evil Monks. Good SR & Saves, great against casters thanks to stun & grappling.

Creatures with poison, preferrably a ranged attack. Those characters are going to have crappy Fort saves.

 

[Rystil Arden]

If they complain then they are probably being challenged.

I couldn't agree more...but...the player of the Frenzied Berserker did threaten to never speak to me again after the entire party was defeated by the Ex-Iajutsu-Master Frenzied Berserker before they could have a turn...good thing she didn't want to kill them, just take the FB's sword...

 

[Rystil Arden]

Heh. Best "single" opponent to deal with this group: a summoner. This can either be a pure caster or it can be one of the more powerful outsiders that have spellcasting powers as well.

Summon a couple of huge air elementals; high movement rate, good stats, fairly durable. Send the elementals in en-masse and have each one grab a PC with flyby attack and take off in a different direction, that should end up with the PCs being several hundred feet apart and possibly out of sight depending on terrain.

Each of the elementals goes to a designated location where two or three moderately tough summoned creatures are waiting. (An 18th level summoner should have enough duration to pull this off though the first summons may only be around for 5-6 rounds once the fight starts) If each of those characters is facing a huge air and a couple of 10-12HD outsiders they will be in serious trouble, especially if those outsiders are instructed to use their Dispel Magic spell(-like) abilities to counter anything the casters try.

Once the first one's loose and they start teaming up they will quickly mop up their opponents *BUT* they will have no freaking clue what just transpired. If the summoner has a minion like an Improved Familiar that can use magic items (quasit, mephit, etc), the stealthed familiar can send a threat every few hours at the party to keep them from resting while the summoner gets back to full strength.


Other options are:
Golems. Those things are highly resilient to magic and a moderately common construct due to the books of golem construction.

Evil Monks. Good SR & Saves, great against casters thanks to stun & grappling.

Creatures with poison, preferrably a ranged attack. Those characters are going to have crappy Fort saves.

I dunno. Summoners are really wimpy. The wizard can probably Banishment all of the Summoner's stuff very quickly, and even if that isn't prepared, Summoned Monsters are pretty weak...

 

[Crothian]

Mechancially just increase the AC of the opponets, their saves, SR, hit points, BAB, damage, by a bit hear and there.

 

[isoChron]

More opponents are better than one very tough opponent most of the time.
For example if they can't concentrate on the Wiz 17 because the 7 fighters (14) are attacking them from different angles and the cleric 15 throws spells at them.
One Wiz 24 would be down quite fast and is about the same EL (I estimate, not calculated yet).

Opponents don't threaten the PC's openly. They smile at them and do them a favor now and then, only to lure them into a trap.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

More opponents are better than one very tough opponent most of the time.

This bears repeating. When the entire party can focus on one baddie, that baddie is most likely going to go down fast. Especially with five high-level spellcasters in the party. (Unless that one baddie is an Adamantine Golem. )

I'd suggest sending a group of level 15-ish villains at them. Or similarly powered monsters.

 

[green slime]

I enjoy throwing large numbers of opponents in the way.... not a mere 7 or 8 but twenty, thirty, (once even 2000.... a constant stream of opponents flowing onto the battlefield) or more....

First, they have to even recognize which one's are the real threat....

 

[Rystil Arden]

This bears repeating. When the entire party can focus on one baddie, that baddie is most likely going to go down fast. Especially with five high-level spellcasters in the party. (Unless that one baddie is an Adamantine Golem. )

I'd suggest sending a group of level 15-ish villains at them. Or similarly powered monsters.

I've managed to challenge my PCs with single-enemy boss fights, but the bosses have been pretty damn powerful to do it.