How to Deal with a difficult DM?

Gizzard said:
I think the smart thing for the GM to do is to start with a recap, especially if you haven't played in a month. But, this is also an example of where the players will see the problem differently than the GM.

While I don't have a story hour, I do have a Y! group where I post a recap after each session, which is handy since we play every other week. It makes life easier when I can go review or just hand out a sheet to whoever might have missed the previous week. As a GM tool it's also great for getting the facts straight in my head.

I must admit to having done most bad GM things at one point or another. I've railroaded (jeez, that sucked for me because it was so boring!); had cryptic, almost unsolveable puzzles, occassionally seen it as me-vs-them; had unwinnable combats; freebie combats; and just lapsed into monosyllabic communication that gave the players nothing.

I've learned that a good (or at least competent) GM doesn't enjoy a bad session any more than the players do. If the players are unhappy and the GM's tickled, change groups. He's wrong in the head.

I will say there is such a thing as incompatible styles. My brother runs a fun game but....I don't get into it. His basic premises are alien to me and I really can't track the logic of his NPCs. Very much a stranger in a strange land moment. *BUT* he has a decent grasp of the rules, his world is fairly well fleshed out, and I'm the only one who constantly has the puzzled look on my face. So in this case, it's me and I'm okay with it, other than it means there's a game I'm missing out on, darn it.

When having bad GM problems, try running a one-shot or other canned module on a 3-day holiday or something. Give the GM a chance to play and you to see how it is on the other side of the table.
It might help shake him out, especially if he complains about something because then you and the other players can discuss it without affecting his game directly, where he'd be defensive.

Hmmm, I'm rambling from the sugar buzz (Yay Krispy Kreme doughnuts!). Hope this makes sense.
 

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I'm reading this whole thread from a DM's perspective, although I also play when I can get the chance.

A little background:
I've run games for about 15 years, in a variety of systems. I've gotten better over the years, and I've always been a good gamemaster, and I've improved over the years. (Not trying to be boastful, just accurate.) But I also have run many games that have just completely sucked, I've run campaigns that have died, I've had players pissed off and quit, I've been a difficult and annoying jerk, and I've been (and sometimes still am) a bad gamemaster. (Again, I'm not dumping on myself or effacing false modesty. I'm just trying to accurately reflect on my strengths and weaknesses.)

So I am always trying to seek improvement. I look for feedback from my players, and try to understand what they are looking for in the game so I can provide that. Sometimes, though, I have found that some players are more trouble than they are worth. Usually I just stop trying to accomodate their incessant demands, and natural attrition takes its course. Sometimes I kick them out of the group.

Lately I am concerned about some of my "problem areas" as a DM. These have been expressed overtly or covertly by some of my players, and I am looking for ways that I can fix them.

Consistency. Some of my players seem to feel that I am not consistent with my rulings or rules interpretations. This is a big issue in my mind, b/c I think that consistency is very important to creating a viable game. I think my problem is that I sometimes forget what I have ruled in the past, and when a similar situation comes up, I make a judgement call that doesn't jive with previous judgement calls. Maybe better organization would help?

Balance. Some players definitely do not like my sense of balance. Of course, some players don't like to roll dice for their stats, b/c they don't like the idea that they might have more or fewer "points" than another player. My sense of balance says that every player should be able to participate and have fun. If that can be accomplished with 1st and 10th level chars in the party, then great! (In D&D, that's usually hard to achieve, so I prefer to keep everyone close in power level.) So for me, balance is about making sure each player feels invested in, and able to contribute to, the game. That can be challenging when one player's sense of balance directly contradicts another player's sense of balance. (i.e., one likes a point-buy, and another likes to roll their stats.) I am not sure if I will ever be able to perfect this, but I am still trying.

Control. I am sure some players think I am too controlling in some aspects of the game (or am too controlling in the wrong areas) because I get push back on some of my judgement calls. Its odd, b/c my perspective as a player clearly isn't shared by all gamers. When I am a player, I'll raise an objection once to a GM's judgement call, and then accept it and keep playing, and try to find ways to adapt. Some of my players, though, seem to think that they need to keep pressing the issue, sometimes to the detrminent of the game. Some players seem unwilling to accept that the GMs job is to interpret the rules, keep the game running smoothly, and to be the ultimate arbiter and interpreter of the game rules. Now, I can understand being frustrated if the GM's rules don't make sense to you, or (worse) are inconsistent or arbitrary, but I don't understand being obstinate in the face of a GM ruling.

[Example: I was playing a barbarian in a game and fighting against a difficult "boss". We were one-on-one, and it was coming down to the wire. He was mounted and dealing vicious damage to me, so I tried to sunder his lance. The DM ruled that the lance had some rediculous number of hit points (like 60) based on the illustration of a lance in the PHB. That made it essentially impossible for me to succeed, so I pointed out that there were rules for weapon hardness and hit points in the combat chapter, but he didn't change his mind. So after making that one objection, I let it go, and asked if I could change my action (since my character ought to know that sundering lances was an impossibility in that world), and he said I could. I was fine with that outcome, and used different tactics to run away from my foe. We later talked outside the game about it, which is appropriate, but my point is that you don't keep arguing with the GM during the game. It slows things down and ruins the fun for everyone.]

To bring this around to the topic: I would deal with a difficult DM in the following ways. I have done all of these at various times as a player. I usually proceed in the order listed.

1. Talk in game. Raise an objection in the game. This is particularly applicable when a rules interpretation is off, or when a railroading DM is giving you a lame plot. Keep it short and to the point. Something like "actually, it says here that fireball deals 1d6 damage per caster level, not 1d4", or "you know, my paladin really wouldn't agree to assassinate the king and kidnap his daughter", is perfectly fine. But if the DM is not willing to reconsider, don't argue about it in the game. Move on to number 2.

2. Accept the DM's authority. Try to find a way to reconcile the situation amicably for all concerned and move on with the game. You might say "ok, in your game, fireballs deal less damage than normal. I'll write that down as a house rule so I know next time. This time I'll use lightning bolt instead. Does that still use d6s?", or you might say "I understand this is the adventure you prepared. Can we say that my paladin received a directive from his god stating that the king is evil, his guards are corrupt, and this is the only way to lift the family curse?" If not, you might have to accept a stinky situation (temporarily) for the sake of that evening's game. But definitely don't let it drop. Move on to number 3.

3. Talk outside the game. Take your DM aside and explain the nature of your concern. Don't be confrontational, but do be firm about your expectations and goals for the game. Try to offer solutions that involve compromise, since it is never entirely one person's issue. That leads you to number 4.

4. Look for ways you are contributing to the problem. No one is perfect. Even if you are perfect, you're the one who is picky enough to complain, so you have some room to offer solutions, even if it is just lowering your standards. While you need to be mature enough to recognize that everyone can improve (both as player and DM), you also need to ensure that you don't compromise to the point where you are not having fun. If the GM is unwilling or unable to work with you to resolve the situation in such a way that everyone is able to enjoy the game, then there are just two things left to do.

5. Fire the DM. Offer to run a game in order to give the DM a break. Or just ask others if they want to meet at another time to try something new. If your game runs well, after a couple weeks you can say you're too busy and have to bow out of your DM's game. If you don't mind him as a player, you can invite him to join yours. Or if your collective group is large, you can run separate games and get together to compare DM notes and talk about players behing their backs. :)

6. Leave the group. Ultimately, if you are unable to resolve the problem and are unwilling or unable to run a game, then you'll have to drop out. Try to do it with no hard feelings and remember that sometimes good people just have different styles or personality and can't game together. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, and you'll be happier in the long run to handle the situation maturely and avoid any undue stress.

Ozmar the Experienced (but still learning) GM
 

3catcircus said:
I had already been DMing a campaign for quite a few sessions, with the PCs on the Moonshae Isles - I had adapted some of B1-9 (Castle Caldwell portion) and UK modules The Sentinel and The Gauntlet, with a backstory for them being in the Moonshaes to find a missing Imam of Tyr (the party's paladin was leading the effort, since his patron deity was Tyr.) While investigating the skulk situation, they ran into the underground lair of some Xvarts (I know, they aren't canon Forgotten Realms creatures - so sue me...)

Anyway, during the battle, the paladin killed fleeing Xvart females carrying babies in their arms - his justification was that they were calling out warning to other Xvart warriors to come aid the ones already present.

Later, the group discovered the remains of a village razed by (IIRC) gnolls. The gnoll chieftain was still alive - instead of taking him prisoner, they slew him.

I felt that while the 2nd event was a gray area, the first event was clearly a violation of what a paladin stands for - and I refused to award full experience points for the encounter, as well as making the paladin lose his powers until he atoned.

The entire group howled their outrage at me not giving them the xp for killing innocents women and children.

Now - is that a case of being a difficult DM?

What about the case of a different campaign, where the party was deciding who should guard some magical stones? The lawful evil hexblade bashed the party's sorcerer (who had 3 hp) in the head with a rock, knocking him unconscious to prove the point that the sorcerer should not be the one to guard them as he was too vulnerable to even a simple mugging, let alone any serious threat. He immediately healed the sorcerer afterwards, but he *was* played like an evil character. The sorcerer howled protests that the hexblade should have been arrested (there was no law-man around to witness the event, having taken place in a hallway in an inn in Triboar.) I didn't penalize the player for having his character attack an "innocent" person in this case because it was something that his character would do, being lawful evil. This same character (the party was guarding a caravan) tried to third-party negotiate with another character to not work directly for the caravan, but to be a sub-contractor to him, with the intent of cheating him out of an equal share of pay... So, even though the character was played as an utter bastard, everything he did was in keeping with the character's alignment and character concept.

Does applying this seemingly-double standard make me a difficult DM? Or do you think I was justified in my ruling in both cases.

I find that it is very difficult to play Paladins, and I love to play Paladins, in a campaign if the DM and the player do not discuss what they believe a Paladins motives to be before the session.

Everyone has their own idea of how a Paladin should act. If a DM makes a value judgement on a Paladin on something they, the player and the DM, haven't discussed prior, it can lead to a lot of finger pointing and blame. Never a good thing.
 

S'mon said:
This is interesting - as DM I tend to prefer the style of avoiding generating killer encounters just to screw with the players, I'm generally happiest running foes with CR below Party Level who use smart tactics to pose a threat. If I run foes at above PL there will often be PC deaths, which can get trying if the same player has loses a PC 3 sessions in a row.

Yup. To clarify, I don't object to tough encounters -- but I try now to avoid making incredibly overpowering encounters with the specific aim of "And then I'll let them win." I realized how incredibly annoying that was, and stopped. :)

And yeah, another friend of mine, an occasional DM, makes a habit out of taking easy encounters and making them hard through tactics -- his goblins will focus all of their ranged attacks on a single person, usually the least-armored target. His encounters are easy on paper, but whereas the Overpowered Encounter DM will send your 7th-level party up against 10 goblins, each of whom have 10 Levels of Monk and Flaming Unholy Ki Straps, only to have said goblins just run up and try to punch you, the Maximized Tactics DM will send you up against 10 ordinary goblins, and you'll find yourself grappled, hit with hit-and-run tactics to use up your spells, your mounts hamstrung, your packs rifled as you drop them to give chase, and your weapons disarmed by all ten people aiding another against the fighter...

Personally, the nice middle ground I've found is to improve my use of flavor-text, rather than giving bad guys a ton of power. If my 6th-level party encounters a knight clad in blood-red cruelly barbed armor from which black, oily smoke constantly pours, holding a flail whose head is a scorched human skull with glowing red nails protruding from the eye sockets, and he laughs and clenches his fist, and then the smoke pouring out of his armor billows out to form a leering demonic visage... the party is going to be nervous. When it turns out that, on paper, said dark knight is a Fighter2/Cleric3, far below the party's power level, with a +1 Light Flail and +1 Full Plate that also functions as a Wand of Obscuring Mist, he loses a lot of his mystery -- but the goal is to keep the players scared, even though they radically overpower this guy by the numbers.
 

reveal said:
I find that it is very difficult to play Paladins, and I love to play Paladins, in a campaign if the DM and the player do not discuss what they believe a Paladins motives to be before the session.

Everyone has their own idea of how a Paladin should act. If a DM makes a value judgement on a Paladin on something they, the player and the DM, haven't discussed prior, it can lead to a lot of finger pointing and blame. Never a good thing.
Agreed. I used to try to play paladins, and always had the DM stripping my powers away for minor infractions or trumped up charges. (Well, they seemed minor to me.)

I did recently adjust my attitude about playing paladins and decided to give it a try, and that worked well. I managed many game sessions without even losing my powers! I got into one dispute with party members over the treatment of helpless prisoners, but otherwise everything went well. I'd probably still be playing him if it wasn't for that unfortunate devil incident...

Ozmar the Deceased Paladin

Moral: Be a team player with the party, and always prepare bless weapon.
 
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jeffh said:
Basically the whole campaign was a mystery with virtually no actual clues, only the occasional mildly insulting comment from the GM about how we kept missing them.
I hate it when a DM does that! I hate metagaming hints. I hate snide comments about how dumb we are that we're missing or avoiding their precious plot clues. I hate it when they reveal metagame information to players. Just tell me what my character knows so I can RP it!

Another thing that gets in my craw are uber-powerful know-it-all NPCs who lord it over PCs but don't deign to dirty their hands with "low level work". NPCs should exist to make the world credible and to make the players feel like their characters are special. I hate NPCs who show up in the game solely to show you how pathetic your character is. They teleport in, hand you a mission from on high (which you can't refuse) and piss you off. And then when you attack them out of spite, your magic missiles bounce off, and they don't even condescend to kill you for your temerity. "Oh, you are beneath my notice. You cannot possibly harm me."

Dang I hate it when DM's do this. It got to be such a pain for me, that I actively removed any credibly powerful NPCs in my own games, until the players were all complaining that they never had friendly NPCs who could or would help them. I probably over-reacted, but I can't stand it when NPCs lord it over PCs. The game is about the PCs, dang it!

Ozmar the Venting

(P.S., sorry to be so meowy. I had to get that off my chest. Hopefully DMs will read this and think about it sometimes before they throw that NPC who is just "so cool" into their next game. The PCs should be the stars!)
 

Ozmar said:
Another thing that gets in my craw are uber-powerful know-it-all NPCs who lord it over PCs but don't deign to dirty their hands with "low level work". NPCs should exist to make the world credible and to make the players feel like their characters are special. I hate NPCs who show up in the game solely to show you how pathetic your character is. They teleport in, hand you a mission from on high (which you can't refuse) and piss you off. And then when you attack them out of spite, your magic missiles bounce off, and they don't even condescend to kill you for your temerity. "Oh, you are beneath my notice. You cannot possibly harm me."

Almost as bad are the GMs who have fallen in love with their NPCs and proceed to have the NPCs do the adventure. These types of GMs force the PCs to have some NPC tag along with them. I've seen GMs have these NPCs solve the riddles, take the treasure, kill the enemies, and basically run the whole game. And then the GM sits back and mocks the PCs for being lame and not doing anything. This is just another form or railroading, and it can basically lead to extremely passive players.

Here's a clue to these GMs: The players are the stars of the game. If they are taking their time at something, don't run over them with NPC actions. Perhaps they are debating the best course, perhaps they will come up with a solution that the GM didn't intend. If this happens, don't have the NPCs do things to keep "the precious plot" on course.
 
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For me, most of my problems stem from my long history of knowing too much. I've seen so many movies and read so many books, both historical, fantasy, etc..., that most GMs just bore me so I try to play real simple characters just to relax.

When I have a problem with a GM, I see what other people think first. No point in huffing my chest out if I'm the only one with the problem. I've seen players storm up and demand a change and all the other players tell them to shut the hell up.

After I see that many people have a problem, I'll see if someone else wants to GM or if there are any optional things, like say Action Points, that might augment the enjoyability scale of the game.

I really try to avoid talking about someone behind their back because it's too wuss like.
 

One thing I have noticed about people, in general, is that they will put up with a lot of sh-tuff before they say anything to a person.

I also notice a lot of this going on at the table. I have been guilty of it myself. My advice to anyone who has a "bad DM" is to voice your concerns to them. If they are open, they will take the time to discuss the campaign and its direction. If they are not open, then you need to ask yourself if you really want to be there or not.

IRL, if you met someone who just rubbed you the wrong way, had ways and mannerisms you didn't like and, in general, gave you the impression that he/she was a real "jerk," would you want to be around them very much? Probably not. So why should you sit at a table and play in a game in which this very person has control?
 

Tilla the Hun (work) said:
Luckily, we only lost the first level ranger - the 5th level cleric had two hold persons ready and we survived - more on luck than anything.

And Hold person spells don't work on frost giants...you were REALLY lucky
 

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