How to deal with death in RPG?

[uzirath]

I feel like a lot of people are approaching this from the DM side. That's backwards - the players are the ones whom will most feel the death of a character, you need to approach this from your feelings as a player.

I like this angle; the player perspective is central here.

In a game with the base assumptions of D&D - you are putting your life and limb on the line to do heroic things - as a player I find it off-putting if death is not on the table.

This makes sense. In some games, I completely agree. I quibble with one minor element of your characterization below.

Why should I both to play intelligently if I know I have plot armor? Where's the thrill of victory if my character can't lose? . . . But overcoming challenges, be it a puzzle, a social encounter, or a combat, is fun. Having no fear of death so we spend 45 minutes rolling lots of dice to a preordained end result is not.

In the long-term campaigns that I've run (AD&D, D&D2-5, GURPS, and DFRPG) where character death was largely off the table, the characters could definitely lose. Results were never preordained. The characters' goals were regularly thwarted, sometimes in permanent ways. Of course, new goals would emerge, but I couldn't predict what these would be.

This has been true as a player, too. The most emotional scene I recall from any game I've played in was in a scifi game where the villain totally outsmarted us and blew up a ship full of refugees that we'd been trying to ferry to safety. Over the course of many prior adventures, we had gotten to know the leaders of the refugees and had planned everything out on their behalf. It all came to a head in a climactic session, and we blew it. Our characters were fine, not even in much danger, but every adult in the room was crying. That was an amazing session.

An element that stands out from that experience, looking back, is that total party failure is so much more dramatically satisfying as a player than TPK. After a TPK, usually everybody is just peeved about the whole thing. Losing an individual character in a great death scene can be satisfying, but usually the full group isn't sharing the grief in the same way. One player lost his or her character; the others are sad on their behalf. But they're also eager to press on. When the whole party fails together, losing something they all care about, there's this profound moment when everyone is grieving together.

And then, hopefully, plotting their sweet, sweet revenge.

The DM encouraging a discussion pre-game / session zero is the best way.

QFT.

 

[pemerton]

In a game with the base assumptions of D&D - you are putting your life and limb on the line to do heroic things - as a player I find it off-putting if death is not on the table. Yes, there can and are other risks, but they are taking one constant - and sometimes the only risk depending on the scene - off the table. Why should I both to play intelligently if I know I have plot armor? Where's the thrill of victory if my character can't lose?

Yeah me too. Although I'm not keen on 'compulsory trivial death' - like the OSR game where I wasn't allowed hirelings & was told I had to put my 3hp Cleric on the front line vs the zombies, who inevitably killed me. I like a chance to survive, especially if I play smart.

To make the move from I am putting life and limb on the line to do heroic things to if death is not on the table, I have plot armour and can't lose requires an extra premise - something like if I'm not dead then I'm not defeated.

D&D's hp mechanic tends to make that premise true by default, but it's possible to have RPGs which rest on the same heroic premise but don't involve PC death as a significant risk and yet which make it possible for the PCs to lose. Cortex+ Heroic fantasy and Prince Valiant are two examples I've been playing fairly recently.

EDIT: [MENTION=8495]uzirath[/MENTION] has ninja'd me a bit on some of the above.

 

[Blue]

To make the move from I am putting life and limb on the line to do heroic things to if death is not on the table, I have plot armour and can't lose requires an extra premise - something like if I'm not dead then I'm not defeated.

D&D's hp mechanic tends to make that premise true by default, but it's possible to have RPGs which rest on the same heroic premise but don't involve PC death as a significant risk and yet which make it possible for the PCs to lose. Cortex+ Heroic fantasy and Prince Valiant are two examples I've been playing fairly recently.

EDIT: @uzirath has ninja'd me a bit on some of the above.

Agreed, which is why I even underlined the point and D&D base assumptions, and talked about how there are other success/failure, but this is the one that's true for all and is the only one in some cases. (Again, assuming D&D.)

 

[Crusadius]

The thief, Black Leaf, did not find the poison trap, and I declare her dead.

NO, NOT BLACK LEAF! NO, NO! I'M GOING TO DIE! Don't make me quit the game.

I thought this is how people deal with death in RPGs. Did Jack Chick lie to me?

 

[Maxperson]

My campaigns typically run about a year. During the course of a campaign we will experience from 0-2 PC deaths, usually 1. A single PC death a year is rare enough that players can and do invest heavily in their PCs and the game, yet frequent enough that the players still worry about it when they hit a challenging encounter.

I won't kill off a PC due to extreme bad luck. Not just bad luck, but extreme bad luck. Sometimes the players in a combat can't roll above a 10, while I'm dropping 20 after 20 behind the screen. If the players are making sound decisions, but luck is getting to them, I'll fudge things a bit to even the fight back up. They might still lose and a PC could die, but it will at least be a fair fight. The gloves are off if they are in a bad situation due to poor decision making, though. I'm not going to fudge things to get them out of their poor decisions.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[uzirath]

HOWEVER ... that isn't what everyone is looking for in their RPGs. Some people are playing a game, that they enjoy, and they enjoy certain challenges that can be overcome within that game. Part of their "fun" is the idea that knowing that they fairly overcame those challenges, that their character, in the end, didn't have a thumb on the scale, or plot armor, and that they cheated death. They want that final, additional, outcome, with an emphasis on final, to be overcome.

Yes, absolutely! Sometimes I love that style of play, too.

I merely wanted to push back on the idea that taking death off the table means that the story always ends in a preordained fashion. Lack of PC death doesn't necessarily equal GM storytime.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

My S&W game fires back up tonight so the chance for kills is high. Fairly of course, I'm an impartial referee. But I only allow myself a shot if I get a kill so hopefully my dice are as thirsty as I am. I know I can count of several moments of reckless foolishness from my group to help my cause.


Well impartialish...

 

[darkbard]

Some people are playing a game, that they enjoy, and they enjoy certain challenges that can be overcome within that game. Part of their "fun" is the idea that knowing that they fairly overcame those challenges, that their character, in the end, didn't have a thumb on the scale, or plot armor, and that they cheated death. They want that final, additional, outcome, with an emphasis on final, to be overcome.

In a recent game, our second session, in fact, one PC hit negative bloodied value in HPs (in 4E, this means death) during a tough fight with a homebrewed solo. Because of particularly poor rolls on the party's part and several design decisions in my part (which resulted in action denial that begat a death spiral), after the combat, and in consultation with the player, we decided the PC was not dead but rather revivified by her deity (with an attendant geas) and cursed/scarred by the combat (ie, carries a mechanical penalty in play for at least a level or two over which she has some control).

In this way, the combat played out as if the PC died, but the actual death of the character is averted, while still maintaining a relevant penalty for failure (one that is, in fact, more interesting than death).

 

[Zhaleskra]

I think in some ways, some people are forgetting the “game” part of “role playing game”. Sure, I spend time on characters and grow attachments. That said, some of the most fun memories have come from losing those characters and not by my choice. I will sometimes give a GM a way of saving my character, but if that doesn’t happen the character dies. What I don’t like is the GM keeping my character alive for their own purposes, or though it’s never happened to me: the forced resurrection.