D&D 5E How to defeat creatures with legendary actions?

[Nefermandias]

I feel like this is a false flag. If the player would blame you for targeting a downed PC in 5E, they’d blame you for targeting the PC in the first place in older editions - or maybe just blame the DM for putting them through the adventure.

5E is deadly enough, I’ve lost several characters already, had others lose nearly as many and seen at least two TPK’s so far. There’s likewise been many a close call where I was convinced we were looking at a wipe, only to be saved by sheer luck or someone pulling a Hail Mary at just the right time.

This is 100% based on my personal experience and most definitely not a false flag. I've been DMing since 98 so I've been through every edition since 2e. I can tell the difference.

 

[Stormonu]

This is 100% based on my personal experience and most definitely not a false flag. I've been DMing since 98 so I've been through every edition since 2e. I can tell the difference.

shrug, been DMing since ‘79, and while a lot of my experiences have passed into the fog of time, that the game isn’t deadly enough hasn’t been an issue for my groups.

 

[Nefermandias]

shrug, been DMing since ‘79, and while a lot of my experiences have passed into the fog of time, that the game isn’t deadly enough hasn’t been an issue for my groups.

So, you have been at it since 79 and you really dont feel like 5e is easy mode?

 

[Stormonu]

So, you have been at it since 79 and you really dont feel like 5e is easy mode?

No, not at all. More magical, yes. Less deadly, not feeling that all.

 

[aco175]

My players have never blamed me when the monsters finish off their fallen PC before the umpteenth Healing Word can pop them back up. But I do see a lot of Internet posting saying the GM is being unfair if he has the monsters finish fallen PCs. Guess I'm just lucky.

I sometimes have a monster cast mass healing and randomly pop up several of the bad guys that I had removed from play. My players do not complain, but this may be only every 20th combat though. Generally my monsters do not attack PCs that are already down since there are more targets that will attack them. Most depends on the intelligence of the monster and if the cleric already popped up a PC or two.

I wonder if there was a one-shot where you played the monsters and had the enemy adventuring party keep using healing word or mass healing. Not sure if it would change minds about spending attacks to keep bad guys down.

 

[Nefermandias]

There are two ways to frame this.
1: "Why is the monster targeting a downed PC?"
2: "Why isn't the monster targeting a downed PC?"

Regardless of how you frame it, the answer always depends on the monster, and the DM's interpretation of that monster's behavior. But the tone is important.

Unintelligent monsters, like a plant or an ooze, might not know the difference--to them, a downed character is just an easier-to-eat pile of organic matter (easier than the other piles of organic matter that keep moving around and stabbing, anyway). Intelligent monsters know that downed characters don't stay down for very long, and will taking extra steps to ensure they don't get back up again. Cowardly monsters might see a downed character as an opportunity to escape. Exceedingly cruel monsters might wish to capture the downed opponents to take home and torture, prolong their suffering. Greedy monsters might take prisoners to hold for ransom (or to sell), sparing the downed opponents since they are less valuable dead. Alien creatures might spare the downed opponents to experiment on, or to incubate their eggs, etc.

But none of this is going to matter if the players can't trust their DM. Without that trust, the players will always feel that the DM is unfairly trying to kill their character out of spite or malice. So it's important that when you (the DM) decide to target downed PCs, you use plenty of story and "gloating villain monologue" to explain the situation. If the party realizes the BBEG is motivated by greed, they might be able to distract it with money long enough for the cleric to save their fighter.

I have seen this discussed extensively time and time again and I am well aware of how to make a PC death seem less cheap. Still this is not my point.
All I'm asking is for a few optional rules to make 5e deadlier so I don't have to resort to a third party retro clone.

 

[Imaculata]

I would just make sure I can outrun the suicidal barbarian. He'll make for an excellent distraction while I make a run for it.

 

[Stormonu]

I have seen this discussed extensively time and time again and I am well aware of how to make a PC death seem less cheap. Still this is not my point.
All I'm asking is for a few optional rules to make 5e deadlier so I don't have to resort to a third party retro clone.

This discussion should probably be taken to another thread, but have you discussed with DM/players adding or changing some of the table rules to get the level of deadliness you want out of the game? Or are you locked into the existing rules by the Adventurer League or something?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

"How to defeat creatures with legendary actions?"

You ignore them. See, monsters, especially monsters with so-called "legendary actions" are nothing but gluttons for attention.

Don't give them what they want.

Few people understand the psychology of dealing with a legendary-action monster. Your normal PC will panic and immediately draw his sword and attack when he sees the big red dragon in front of him... and then he will start begging for mercy before his quick demise.

This is wrong.

It arouses contempt in the monster-heart. The thing to do when your PC is bopping along and see that big ol' red dragon smack dab in front of him is to continue on as if the dragon wasn't even there. At first, the dragon won't even know what to make of your complete and total indifference to his majesty, power and so-called "legendary actions."

The dragon may rage, may puff, but no matter. Let the dragon calm down; the dragon will want your attention, and the dragon will start jibber-jabbering like a teenager in order to get it.

The idea is to let the dragon know who is in control. Not the dragon, not with any game-mandated legendary actions; but you, with a reservoir of inner cool that would make Steve McQueen green with envy.

 

[Nefermandias]

This discussion should probably be taken to another thread, but have you discussed with DM/players adding or changing some of the table rules to get the level of deadliness you want out of the game? Or are you locked into the existing rules by the Adventurer League or something?

I know it's hard to believe now days, but some groups understand that there's value on sticking to strict RAW.
Of course I know I could homebrew any number of systems to adjust the difficulty to what I see as adequate, but I'm just saying it would be so much better if we had official ways to do so.