How to describe Strider's combat on Weathertop

[Alaric_Prympax]

The hobbit's all are Nobles third/Rogue three, except Sam who's a streight up Fighter, maybe fifth.

I disagree here to Nobles? Mary, and Pippen Nobles? Ok so ones a Took so what, Sam a fighter, I would say more like a Warrior 2nd/Expert 3rd/ 1 level Rogue ( the I wasn't droping no eves)

Mary, and Pippen both are possibly Warrior's 1 level/ Rogue 3-4th level
Frodo is the weakest of them all in my humble oppinion being a book worm of the sorts

I would say 2nd Level Warrior/ 2 Bard or Rogue or even a little bit of Monk in him he didnt seem to good with his sword

Well the Tooks are the Noble family in the Shire, the Thain is in charge of the Shire Militia (not that it's called into action all that often). If there are any Hobbits that are noble then IMO the Tooks certainly are them.

The Brandybucks are another large and powerful family. They even expanded the Shire by colonizing what became Buckland which was not part of the original land grant given to the Hobbits by the king. The Master of Buckland seemed to be pretty respected too by the Hobbits of the Shire if not in a strange way. We all know how queer the Brandybucks are. The actually like boats!

The Baggins seemed to be well respected throughout the Shire and were related to both the Tooks and the Brandybucks (well Frodo we know was). Bagend seems to be a large Hobbit Hole as Hobbit Holes go and Bilbo inheirited it and we all know that he lived there before his little trip to the Lonely Mountain.

So Pippin, Merry, and Frodo IMO would have at least a level or two of Aristocrat. As ColonelHardisson has said and I agree that Pippin picks up some PrC levels equalling the Knight Protector of the Great Kingdom later on (converted to ME of course). Merry would have picked up on the Rider of Rohan PrC (that is if one exisited, I've never seen one) or a few levels of Fighter focusing on the Ride, Handle Animal skills, and the Riding Combat Feats (but I will note he really never showed that much in the books for something like that, I'm just pointing it out for flavor). I like the idea of Frodo having some Bard levels, it fits with him being knowledgeable about many things, his writing of songs, poetry, and books too (this works especially well with Bilbo as well), and all their "sneeking" everywhere. Bilbo definately has levels of Rogue or Burglar. I loved the line that went something like "Well go Burgle something!" which may have been only in the cartoon.

I'll confess that giving Sam a level or two of Expert instead of Commoner I might have been "roll" playing instead of "role" playing. Since his father was a gardener and Sam was taking up his father's duties I thought it fit better to let Sam be an Expert instead of just a Commoner. Everyone thinks that skill points are important and this just helps out Sam a little more.

Well this turned out to be much longer then I expected.

Edited much later to fix some spelling, time was fleeting and I had to run out for a few things.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Let's also remember that Pippin was the son of the Thain of the Shire; if anyone in the Shire was an Aristocrat, he would be - he was a true "prince of the Halflings."

 

[WizarDru]

Your feedback is welcome!

Some interesting work there (though I disagree, it looks good). One quick question, though: where are the stats for the Ring that Gandalf bears?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

For low-level purposes, I would make each of the three elven rings a ring of elemental command (air, water, and fire) per the DMG.

I think a mastery of elements could to some extend explain how the elven strongholds endure.

 

[sword-dancer]

Re: Devil's Advocate

OK, for all of you who think the LoTR characters should be upper-teens/epic levels --- justify that based on demonstrated acts in the books. Just because you *think* the character should be mega-levels, doesn't mean that the character has to be. What is the lowest level the character has to be to accomplish what is done in the books?

Legolas -- Probably has Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, maybe rapid shot. -- 4th Level Fighter.

Gimli -- Hmm. Swings a battle axe well. Beheads orcs occasiionally (=CR 1/4 D&D goblins). Power attack, cleave, endurance. 3rd Level Fighter.

Gandalf -- So what if he's Maiar? He was sent back in human form. What spells can he cast? Hmmm -- daylight, dancing lights, knock, arcane lock, maybe a dispel magic -- 5th level wizard (or maybe slightly higher level sorcerer, since he never uses a spell book).

Aragorn -- Mmm. Know how to use a sword. Can identify herbs, and help cure the sick. 4th level Ranger, with skill ranks in Wilderness Lore and Heal.

Sauron -- has to be able to Forge Ring with ethereal jaunt capability, at the height of his power. Arguably the most powerful being in Middle Earth. 13th level Wizard.

The magic items I see as similarly low powered:

Sting: +1 keen shortsword
Glamdring: +2 orc-bane longsword
Anduril: +3 flaming longsword
The One Ring: Cursed Ring of Ethereal Jaunt. Bearer must make a will save once per decade or lose one point of Con. Reduction to 0 Con turns the bearer into a wraith under the control of the maker of the ring.

You can make everyone in Middle Earth uber-powerful, then nerf the rules system to explain why all the high-level D&D effects aren't present -- or you can scale everything back to match the effects that are demonstrated. I prefer the latter.

Legolas -- Probably has Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, maybe rapid shot. -- 4th Level Fighter.

Between 3-6000 years old, able to convince his horse to goes on the path of the death.
Killing a fell bneast flying high in the middle oft night with one shot.

Gandalf -- So what if he's Maiar? He was sent back in human form. What spells can he cast? Hmmm -- daylight, dancing lights, knock, arcane lock, maybe a dispel magic -- 5th level wizard (or maybe slightly higher level sorcerer, since he never uses a spell book).

Taking a Balrog no mere Nazguld down.
His mere presence sent in the forebattle of Minas Tirith a few nazgul packing.
Escaping from Dol Guldur, breaking the enchantment Saruman and Wormtongue thrown over Theoden in an instant.
Being older than the world.
Oh and yes he was sent back in human form, not a human being.

Aragorn -- Mmm. Know how to use a sword. Can identify herbs, and help cure the sick. 4th level Ranger, with skill ranks in Wilderness Lore and Heal.

Adventuring/Questing 6 decades against the shadow, leading the armies of Rohan and Gondor, travelling through whole ME,
Able to hold his own again the nazgul

Sauron -- has to be able to Forge Ring with ethereal jaunt capability, at the height of his power. Arguably the most powerful being in Middle Earth. 13th level Wizard.

Sauron was Morgoths first lieutenánt so he must be more powerful maiar than the fire spirits, or the vampiress
powerfull enough not to get drowned by the downfal of numenore.
Before he was able to trick Galadriel and the noldor smith of hulsten so the rings were forged, and he was powerfull enough to create the one master ring.

For low-level purposes, I would make each of the three elven rings a ring of elemental command (air, water, and fire) per the DMG.

I think a mastery of elements could to some extend explain how the elven strongholds endure.

With´ch hasn`t anything to do with their primary role.
Nenyar to lift the spirirts of men.

 

[myrdden]

I've never seen any reference to the Elfstone providing him powers like that. It may have been magical, but Tolkien almost certainly didn't mean to connect it with any powers Aragorn had. It was a gift to him from Arwen, a symbol of his destiny. He had the power of healing due to his heritage - he was the king, and the hands of the king are the hands of a healer.

Thanks for the correction!

Myrdden

 

[Chrysoula]

Legolas

Somebody suggested Legolas had a godawful dex bonus but was probably kind of weak because he avoided melee weapons. Oddly enough, in watching the movie, one of the things I explicitly noted about Legolas was how ridiculously strong he was. I think he catches Gimli and a hobbit when they're jumping down the stairs, and doesn't even stagger.

I haven't read the books all the way through ever (but have read lots of different BITS of the trilogy and the Simarillion-- makes for fun watching and reading) but I sort of doubted that it was an accidental thing, given Legolas prancing around on top of the snow, which I also loved.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Devils Advocate, part 2

OK, I'll do this once. After that, it's pointless. Sword-dancer is welcome to the last word. Here goes:

Between 3-6000 years old, able to convince his horse to goes on the path of the death.

- Spent 3,000 years frolicking & nancing about the forest (got a reference for Legolas' birthday? I couldn't find it in the appendices. We don't have an acknowledged method of converting year to XP, do we)
- All the men accomplished this too with their horses
- Far shot with critical hit

Taking a Balrog no mere Nazguld down.
His mere presence sent in the forebattle of Minas Tirith a few nazgul packing.
Escaping from Dol Guldur, breaking the enchantment Saruman and Wormtongue thrown over Theoden in an instant.
Being older than the world.

- See my version of the Balrog. No problem for Wiz8.
- Given an equivalent interpretation of ringwraiths, no issue. Remember, everything scales down together. Scare spell.
- Sauron wasn't full power in Dol Guldur, and we don't know anything about the escape
- Dispel Magic
- Again, age does not necessarily equal power or experience

Adventuring/Questing 6 decades against the shadow, leading the armies of Rohan and Gondor, travelling through whole ME,
Able to hold his own again the nazgul

- That's how he got to sixth level (Tolkien is stingy with XP)
- Leadership feat
- Rgr 6 vs. five wraiths. Doable. Again, everything scales.

Sauron was Morgoths first lieutenánt so he must be more powerful maiar than the fire spirits, or the vampiress
powerfull enough not to get drowned by the downfal of numenore.
Before he was able to trick Galadriel and the noldor smith of hulsten so the rings were forged, and he was powerfull enough to create the one master ring.

- My point. If the highest level person in the world is 13th level -- he's still the highest level person in the world. Level assignments are a completely arbitrary measure. You definition of powerful does not equal my definition of powerful.

With´ch hasn`t anything to do with their primary role.
Nenyar to lift the spirirts of men.

-Good point, might need some tweaking on the ring. Or maybe everyone's spirits get lifted by the good weather the ring enforces?

We probably won't agree on character or monster definitions or levels. Rather than refer to arbitrary acts (as above) -- Give me some evidence, then show in D&D terms why that evidence can only be accounted for by a character of X level (Example: Sauron must be at least 12th level, because that's the prerequisite for Forge Ring).

Or, let's just agree to disagree.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Yeah, Gandalf was a Maia, but many seem to forget a couple of very important points about him and the other Wizards:

From Unfinished Tales, Part Four, section II: The Istari:"Emissaries they were from the Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt."

Emphasis mine.
They were Maiar, but they were men physically.

 

[Sulimo]

Re: Legolas

Somebody suggested Legolas had a godawful dex bonus but was probably kind of weak because he avoided melee weapons. Oddly enough, in watching the movie, one of the things I explicitly noted about Legolas was how ridiculously strong he was. I think he catches Gimli and a hobbit when they're jumping down the stairs, and doesn't even stagger.

And in the snippet of TTT, it shows Legolas doing some two-weapon fighting...