How to describe Strider's combat on Weathertop

[ColonelHardisson]

though Sauron might have some epic capability -- it that sounds a bit more like a storm of vengeance to me.

Yeah, but Storm of Vengeance only has an area of effect radius of 360 feet. This cloud cloud covered Mordor and a big chunk of eastern Gondor.

EDIT: Plus, Storm of Vengance only has a duration of 10 rounds; Sauron's lasted for days.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

You can see my take on Denethor at the site linked to in my sig.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Yes, Colonel Hardisson, that is my point.

To all too many people, Denethor comes off as the madman who failed to lead his people during the Siege.
He is the loser who stayed in his tower while his city burned, and did nothing.

He is the madman who forced Gandalf away from the Field of Battle (thus bringing greater woe to Theoden, Eowyn, and Merry, than perhaps would have been.)
The madman who decided to burn himself alive, and burn his son alive with him.

The madman who succeeded in killing himself, burning to death with the Palantir clutched in his withering hands.

And there is Gandalf, telling Denethor (before the end) that he is not given the right to kill himself or his son, and otherwise preaching to Denethor as a priest might ... and Denethor calling Gandalf a fool, and stating all is lost ... Denethor lost in his madness and taken by the darkness.

This definitely COULD give Denethor a bad image in the eyes of those reading the books.
For those who have not read the books, what will they think, when they see Return of the King (the film) and they see Denethor's despair and death?

Will they appreciate his very real heroism?
Will they appreciate the man who stood as a staunch defender of his people?
Will they appreciate the man who tried to find a way to save his people when confronted with impossible odds?

Or will they see the idiot who did not fight for his city, did not leave his tower when the final need came, and who ultimately proclaimed all was lost and killed himself?
Denethor the fool.
Denethor the madman.
Denethor the pessimist.
Denethor the idiot.

And this impression is WRONG.
If people are lead to believe that this is the truth, then they are as mislead as Denethor himself was - when Sauron mislead him through the Palantir.

Boromir understood the truth, and he tried to tell Aragorn that truth, and pleaded with him to stand with Gondor, stand with the White City.
Before he died, Boromir saw the true Aragorn, and Aragorn plighted his loyalty to Gondor, and swore to save the White City.
Now THAT is the truth ... and it would seem that Peter Jackson wishes the audience to appreciate the real truth of the Stewards.

I simply hope he portrays the true Denethor, and allows the audience to see what really was, and not the false and shallow image of the idiot and madman, as Denethor ultimately fell into the Darkness.

 

[Frosty]

I'd just like to add that a torch in D&D does 1d3 damage (fire) and has a crit range of x2. Since Strider sets several wraiths a light I think it's safe to assume that Strider's player made some pretty fantastic dice rolls regardless of what level he might have been. I think it becomes obvious that the ringwraiths had limited hit dice.

 

[Sarellion]

@Edena

Never questioned that Denethor wasn´t an honorble man but I wondered that Boromir said that his father was a weak ruler? I never thought of him in that way and will not do it now.

I hope that Jackson gives him the proper image.

 

[sword-dancer]

Re: Devils Advocate, part 2

OK, I'll do this once. After that, it's pointless. Sword-dancer is welcome to the last word. Here goes:



Or, let's just agree to disagree.

- Spent 3,000 years frolicking & nancing about the forest (got a reference for Legolas' birthday? I couldn't find it in the appendices. We don't have an acknowledged method of converting year to XP, do we)
- All the men accomplished this too with their horses

Fighting with Orcs and the servants of the servants of the Necromancer.
The horses of the dunedain went in for loyality to Aragorn and their riders, only the rohirrim horse refused.

- That's how he got to sixth level (Tolkien is stingy with XP)

sixty years of epic campaigning and you get 6 lev?

- My point. If the highest level person in the world is 13th level -- he's still the highest level person in the world. Level assignments are a completely arbitrary measure. You definition of powerful does not equal my definition of powerful.

How could a 13 lev Wizard sent a blizzard from Mordor to the cradhras?

1. I'd interpret as knock spell vs. arcane lock, so it doesn't show too much.

2. Is entirely dependent on how you definte the Balrog. If the Balrog is a high level creature (Balor), then Gandalf should be too. If the Balrog is something else (like my fiendish fire elemental), then it's possible for Gandalf to be low level.

It's all in how you choose to set your baseline.

At which level cast?

After the fall the Balrog transformed himself in crature of slime(right word?9
And Gandals huntzed him in the dark.

OTOH no Balrog feared a Dragon they are the only creatures beside Sauron they respected.
a 4HD fire elemental equal to a Dragon like ancalogon, who is there a D&D category beyond great old wyrm?
When Ancalogen hit ground, killed from Eärendils Arrow, he smashed Morgoths fortress Angband, destroying most of his forces..

Put yourself in Denethor's place, for a moment.

The Dunedain are your subjects, and you are their Ruler.
That is to say, the Dunedain depend on you for their survival.

On you. It's all on your shoulders. Whether they live or die, will be the result of the choices and actions you take.

And there is nobody else to make those decisions; there is nobody at all.

Edena
I didn`t intend to darken Denethors role.
I meant only to say he didn`t be an weak undecisive leader.
He had given all he could or wanted to give in the fight against Sauron.
Even his children, the he could never expect for sure if one of his sons would ever come back from the campaigns.
His citizen who fought in a war with no real hope to win.
Believing they fought alone.

Somewhere Denethor had lost or couldn`t hold hfaith in something higher, so he couldn`t understand what Gandalf was really say him.
That their cause is really lost only when they give up hope and succumb to the s´hadow.

 

[Qlippoth]

Re: Re: Devils Advocate, part 2

How could a 13 lev Wizard sent a blizzard from Mordor to the cradhras?

Wasn't Saruman the one responsible for the storm over Caradhras? (Or am I thinking of the film rather than the novel?)

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Regarding Redhorn Pass, or Caradhras, I've never seen anything to indicate that it was anything other than the mountain itself that brought about the blizzard. It was called "the Cruel" because of its harsh weather, and seemed to be viewed with superstitious awe by the dwarves. If trees could walk, eagles talk, and fire spirits could walk the land in Middle Earth, I don't have much of a problem believing a mountain could get mad and send a blizzard to block trespassers. If anyone can quote from the book where it says Sauron or saruman sent it, please do (hey, I provide extensive quotes to back up my assertions). I haven't seen such a passage that I can remember.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I was also under the impression that Caradhras had some sort of sentience of its own. I think Gimli has something to say on the subject, but I don't have the books here with me at the moment.

 

[mmadsen]

Regarding Redhorn Pass, or Caradhras, I've never seen anything to indicate that it was anything other than the mountain itself that brought about the blizzard. It was called "the Cruel" because of its harsh weather, and seemed to be viewed with superstitious awe by the dwarves.

Indeed, Gimli says as much:

'Ah, it is as I said,' growled Gimli. 'It was no ordinary storm. It is the ill will of Carachras. He does not love Elves and Dwarves, and that drift was laid to cut off our escape.'

Later:

'Enough, enough!' cried Gimli. 'We are departing as quickly as we may!' And indeed with that last stroke the malice of the mountain seemed to be expended, as if Caradhras was satisfied that the invaders had been beaten off and would not dare to return. The thread of snow lifted; the clouds began to break and the light grew broader.