How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[DarkMaster]

Well you could also say that the high level rogue trained all his life to be able to react quicker than anybody and attack with lightning speed.

The argument of the high level soldier without combat reflex is very weak IMO.

Look at it on the other side, why shouldn't the high dex, high reflex guy shouldn't be able to react a few quarter second before the other. The guy won initiative against 12 he should be able to shine, He was unbeliavebly quick. Don't forget that the brain takes some time to react. When I play paint ball, I see the ball coming my way before it hits me, but the signal from my brain to my legs isn't quick enough for me to dodge it.

 

[KarinsDad]

Well you could also say that the high level rogue trained all his life to be able to react quicker than anybody and attack with lightning speed.

The argument of the high level soldier without combat reflex is very weak IMO.

The argument that the high level rogue who trained all of his life is able to react quicker in round one, but not in other rounds is ALSO weak. IMO.


In round one, everyone whose initiative he beat is unable to fully defend or AoO.

In round two, everyone whose initiative he STILL beat are able to fully defend and AoO.


Look at this another way. If you are walking down a corridor and a pit trap suddenly opens below you (whether you were expecting it or not), you are able to use your Dex modifier in your Reflex save to avoid.

If you are walking down a corridor and an assassin suddenly jumps out at you, even though you are expecting it, you are unable to use your Dex modifier in your AC to avoid.


Am I the only one who sees a contradiction in this?

 

[Quinnman]

We had a weird scenario come up in my group a while back...

On our way to a city, we met some soldiers. Due to differing oppinions (too lengthy to describe here ) our fighter drew his sword and this resulted in the soldiers attacking us... this is all pretty normal, but here comes the funny part...

The soldiers won initiative, thus catching our fighter (and the rest of us) flatfooted, but our DM *specifically* told us that they attacked us because "we attacked first"...!... so... we attack first, but are >still< caught off guard!?!?

This is true according to the rules, but it makes >no< sense! Needless to say, we were not happy about that ruling

EDIT: sorry if I got a bit off track here...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Due to differing oppinions (too lengthy to describe here ) our fighter drew his sword and this resulted in the soldiers attacking us...

...

The soldiers won initiative,

...

This is true according to the rules, but it makes >no< sense! Needless to say, we were not happy about that ruling

Actually, it makes perfect sense.

They're soldiers. They saw someone going for a weapon. They attacked. Your DM just needs to work on his descriptions a bit better.

 

[KarinsDad]

Oh, OK. We're talking about Encounters in Contrivedville. Gotcha.

Well, how about:

.........147X
T.....25W!
.........369@

In this case, the poor thief wins initiative, and can't ever attack the wizard at all (where X=10, !=11, and @=12).

Unless he throws a weapon.


The point was the same regardless of whether it was 12 PC allies or 5 PC allies.

Are you saying that you cannot conceive of a situation like the following in a thieves guild where party member 5 is talking to the guildmaster (G) and the rest of the group is watching for an attack:

T.T.T
.1.2.
.W.5G
.3.4.
T.T.T

or are you merely going to be insulting with your responses?

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, it makes perfect sense.

They're soldiers. They saw someone going for a weapon. They attacked. Your DM just needs to work on his descriptions a bit better.

You missed his point.

The Fighter in his group who STARTED the combat should not have been flatfooted.

But, he was (according to the rules).

How can you be flatfooted (i.e. caught unaware) if you start the combat?

That is the crux of this problem.

 

[atom crash]

The Fighter in his group who STARTED the combat should not have been flatfooted.

But, he was (according to the rules).

How can you be flatfooted (i.e. caught unaware) if you start the combat?

The scenario makes sense when you consider that the soldiers attacked when the fighter went to draw his sword. He made a threatening move, they acted, and they ended up with the drop on him.

How many TV shows have a scene where the cops are talking to a dude who reaches behind his back, into a pocket, etc., and the cops shoot him because they think he's going for a weapon? he intended to shoot the cops, but they reacted quicker. heck, hey've got more training in this sort of thing. We've got the same scenario here, except with swords. A guy moves to draw his sword, and the twitchy soldiers attack.

In this case, I would have skipped the surprise round and gone straight to initiative. If the fighter wanted to draw steel on the sly, I would have given him an opposed bluff roll or some other skill check to possibly get a surprise round.

In the case of the thieves' guild you've been using above, an opposed bluff roll or a spot check by the party would determine if there's a surprise round or just time to roll initiative.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You missed his point.

The Fighter in his group who STARTED the combat should not have been flatfooted.

But, he was (according to the rules).

How can you be flatfooted (i.e. caught unaware) if you start the combat?

That is the crux of this problem.

I got his point.

The fighter didn't start the combat. He tried to start the combat by going for his sword. The others saw him going for his sword and jumped. They jumped faster than the fighter going for his sword did.

Flatfooted is not caught unaware. Surprised is caught unaware. Flatfooted is the seconds between when the fur starts flying and when you're effectively reacting.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Are you saying that you cannot conceive of a situation like the following in a thieves guild where party member 5 is talking to the guildmaster (G) and the rest of the group is watching for an attack:

T.T.T
.1.2.
.W.5G
.3.4.
T.T.T

What? The party has let itself be completely surrounded by NPCs of doubtful trustworthiness, and then they're astonished when the one they weren't watching as carefully as they should have suddenly attacks?

Sounds like a good job by the thieves' guild in setting up an attack.

 

[KarinsDad]

The scenario makes sense when you consider that the soldiers attacked when the fighter went to draw his sword. He made a threatening move, they acted, and they ended up with the drop on him.

How many TV shows have a scene where the cops are talking to a dude who reaches behind his back, into a pocket, etc., and the cops shoot him because they think he's going for a weapon? he intended to shoot the cops, but they reacted quicker. heck, hey've got more training in this sort of thing. We've got the same scenario here, except with swords. A guy moves to draw his sword, and the twitchy soldiers attack.

You are confusing results with expected game mechanics.

I have no problem with the guards going first (i.e. getting the drop on him).

I have no problem with them hitting or even killing the Fighter.

I have a problem with a Fighter pulling his weapon to attack and that initiates combat and he is flatfooted at the time.

Or, what if he already had his weapon out and decides to attack?

On round one, the guards win initiative and even though he started the combat, he not only cannot attack first (which might be reasonable in some cases, but not most of the time), but he cannot AoO and attempt to prevent the guards from surrounding him and getting flank bonuses.


Flatfooted when you are not in a surprise round does not make sense. IMO. I cannot think of a single scenario where when opponents are prepared that they should be flatfooted and lose their Dex bonus and lose AoO opportunities in round one.

In a surprise round, sure.

I just think flatfooted in round one is poor game design. Again, IMO. If you are not surprised, you are not surprised. IMO.