How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[KarinsDad]

IMO, allowing that has only 2 (negative effects):

1) monks get free AoO (<- edit: I just realised that monks have uncanny dodge. So with the RAW, they ARE allowed those AoO)

Uncanny dodge does not allow for AoOs while flat-footed.

2) rogues can't make their first round sneak attacks.

I actually consider this a positive effect instead of a negative effect when opponents are aware of an imminent attack. I don't think Rogues should be allowed to move up 30 feet and sneak attack just because they beat your init. Move up and attack, sure.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Of course none of this is realistic in detail. Who cares?

The point of the Sneak Attack is to allow the Rogue to fight approximately as effectively as a Fighter when he gets a good "tactical edge". For the purpose of mechanics we define "tactical edge" as attacking someone flat-footed, denied Dex, or flanked.

We could make gaining "tactical edge" some kind of opposed skill check, but as a practical matter it would be roughly two iotas more realistic and would add a lot of sucky dice rolling.

For my two cents, if your job is to guard the King, you damn well better have Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon. That is just how D&D works. If you have a King and royal court who is so stupid as to allow an assassin to waltz up and stick a knife into the ruler's heart, you also have people so stupid a 1st Wizard can walk up and Charm Person his way into control of the kingdom. It is the exact same issue. If you refuse to make minor adjustments to take into account obvious D&Disms, then you have no one to blame but yourself if there are problems. Simple as that.

 

[diaglo]

For my two cents, if your job is to guard the King, you damn well better have Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon. That is just how D&D works. If you have a King and royal court who is so stupid as to allow an assassin to waltz up and stick a knife into the ruler's heart, you also have people so stupid a 1st Wizard can walk up and Charm Person his way into control of the kingdom. It is the exact same issue. If you refuse to make minor adjustments to take into account obvious D&Disms, then you have no one to blame but yourself if there are problems. Simple as that.

for my part. i wouldn't allow weapons within the castle except for the guards.

 

[silentspace]

for my part. i wouldn't allow weapons within the castle except for the guards.

Except older folk would be allowed to keep their walking sticks, of course!

 

[diaglo]

Except older folk would be allowed to keep their walking sticks, of course!

they don't call me wyrmtongue for nothing.

 

[DarkMaster]

Taekwondo for many years.

I think you are trying to adjust your perception of reality to match the rules.

In TKD, nobody could sucker punch me if I was ready for them (i.e. ready to spar) and I am not particularly fast (just smart). If I was not ready for them, sure.

And they sure as heck could not run towards me 60 feet and attack while preventing me from moving.

.

Of course why didn't I think about it before. Every combat in D&D starts with a ref in the middle and two clearly defined opponent just waiting for the him/her to give the go ahead to start the combat.

Edit: and clearly defined combat rules, with somehow limited attack possibility.

 

[KarinsDad]

Of course why didn't I think about it before. Every combat in D&D starts with a ref in the middle and two clearly defined opponent just waiting for the him/her to give the go ahead to start the combat.

Smart alec comments aside, we are talking about situations precisely like that.

Characters are aware, expecting combat, and just waiting for it to start.

No different than sparing situations.

We are not really talking about situations where characters are surprised or unaware of foes.

 

[Gantros]

Any idiot could try it. Having a certain feat -- Improved Initiative -- gives you a better chance of success.

Gantros, I think we're saying the same thing here. In your crossbow example above, there's a chance that someone coming through the door reacts faster than you can pull the trigger. Picking up the Improved Initiative feat gives you a better chance of acting faster. Again, a disadvantage and an option to get around it.

I agree with you. My point was merely that the option you posted should be used for the rare cases, the exceptions, not the norm, as there is a balance built upon these advantages and disadvantages.

I guess my disagreement just stems from the fact that I don't feel this option should affect balance in any significant way.

Initiative is about who moves first in a contested situation. Improved Initiative just means you can move sooner than most other people. But the whole point of readying an action is that it allows you to react faster than your initiative would normally allow by preparing a specific response that happens immediately when a specific event occurs. Whether or not you allow someone to ready an action before the fighting starts, Improved Initiative continues to give you an advantage every round, unless facing someone who readied an attack against you.

The argument is similar for Combat Reflexes. This represents an unusually fast reaction time that lets you take advantage of openings in combat to make more attacks. But the guy holding the crossbow is not making an AoO, he's executing a readied action. Whether that action happens before combat or during combat, Combat Reflexes gives the same advantages.

For my two cents, if your job is to guard the King, you damn well better have Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon.

The point is, none of these feats should be necessary for someone to avoid being flat-footed with respect to a specific, known threat. Flat-footedness represents being caught off guard. You don't need training or special abilities to be on guard. You just need to know what you're guarding against, and decide in advance what you will do if it happens. I have no combat training whatsoever, yet if I was looking and pointing a gun at someone 60' away from me, with my finger on the trigger and intending to shoot if they approached, and no other distractions, there's no way even an NFL running back could get close to me before I could pull the trigger.

Even if the guards were 1st level grunts with no feats, I don't think it's too much to expect that a would-be assassin would want to look for a better way to attack the king than to just saunter up and then try to charge 60 feet through several prepared opponents with their weapons trained on him. Unless of course, the assassin was desperate enough or high enough level to think he could ignore the guards AoOs.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

First off the main flaw in this entire argument that I have seen is expecting logic to explain any rules system perfectly.

Now, as for why individuals are flat-footed until they act in the frst round, I submit the following.

Prior to the initiation of combat, opponents may be aware of each other. In theory everybody is ready for something to happen. Weapons may or may not already be drawn. People are twitchy, but so far nothing has happened. You are looking at your opponents, you are looking at your companions, you are waiting for a signal, you are thinking about which one you should attack first, you are wondering which one will come after you. Once someone declares an action, suddenly everything roars to life. In theory, everything happens at once, in the game, there has to be an order. That would be the initiative order. The first person to move/act has the advantage. That person (let's call him Joe) was the quickest, most ready to respond to the twitch that initiated combat - even if the person who declared the initiating action (Mike) has not performed the action yet because of a lousy roll. Joe notices Mike starting to make a move. Joe pounces - Mike, whose mind was busy stepping off to his left and swinging his sword at Harry - his declared action that hasn't yet happened - is basically caught unaware. Mike thought he had the drop on everyone and was focused on what he wanted to do. He was wrong. Mike is caught flatfooted. It was impossible to think about every possible situation, so his mind was focused on a very limited set of situations. Up until that moment when he twitched, Mike was standing in one small spot or moving in a predictable manner, allowing a nice easy targeting of where his vital organs were or would be in a moment - if someone is fast enough to take advantage of it.

Now, once that first round is completed, the idea is that everyone's mind has gone into a mode where you are constantly aware of the tactical situation around you - your world has contracted to the area immediately around you. The number of likely possibilities has contracted as well. The opponent across the room with a sword is no threat to you, the one five feet away with is. You dodge a blow from one opponent while trying to attack another. Someone races by you, you get to take a swing at them. Now a person with Combat Reflexes is a person who is, in my opinion, trained to always be in this second frame of mind. Most people are not able to always be "on" like that.

As for readying out of combat, by the rules you cannot. You are premitted to ready an action on your turn in the initiative order. If someone goes before you are able to ready an action, you obviously cannot ready that action in time to respond to them. A person with a readied action goes on the initiative count of the person who triggers the readied action. If the action does not happen, the person with the readied action retains the same initiative count and on that count can change his action, or maintain the readied action. So, what is the initiative count of a person who readied an action outside of combat? They don't have one, yet. Should they not be permitted to have one until their trigger action occurs, or at least until the first round is completed - in which case they are essentially flat footed except in the case where the trigger action occurs.

Edit: I just reread that last paragraph and all I keep thinking is "how much wood can a woodchuck chuck..."

 

[Ranes]

Characters are aware, expecting combat, and just waiting for it to start.

No different than sparing situations.

In a sparring situation combat is inevitable. In most of the game situations described earlier, it is not. It might be anticipated but it cannot be taken as a given. A lot of the illustrations being fielded to justify readied actions outside of combat, not just the one above, are of questionable worth.

The original question was a good one, which is what got me reading this thread. But the answers have been given. I don't see anything wrong with them.