How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[Bastoche]

It went from 1 page to 4 pages during my sleep. I will not read all the thread over again since it mostly treats many individual specific particular case.

However in general, I think KD misinterpret flat-footedness.

It is NOT a lack of awarness or suprise. It is a lack of motion.

Have you ever fought? I would guess no but I never know heh?

When you fight, you're in constant movement. That's why you threaten all around your "square" and occupy a 5ft x 5ft square. If you lose initiative, you went in movement last and cannot avoid a blow or react to a movement. Watch boxing a bit. Do you see boxers out of motion for long? That's the reason why a character is flatfootedf only on it's first round. Because the other rounds is a chain of motion. Each round are not isolated events, they are interchained events. That's why you do not get flat-footed after first round.

Most of the D20- D&D mechanic is abstract and hard to realistically interpret. Flat-footedness IMO is one of the very rare exception! Being a martial arts adepts and a LARP enthousiast, flat-footedness is by far the most realistic mechanics that 3E introducted.

 

[atom crash]

Actually, the rules provide for a way to effectively start combat without rolling for initiative, under certain conditions. Those "conditions" are when two hostile parties are aware of each other, and either cannot interact or choose not to do so right away. Initiative is only rolled when one party attempts to engage the other in some way, or puts themselves in harm's way. I believe this allowance can be used to solve the problem presented in this thread without breaking any rules or house-ruling anything.

Keep in mind that using this method more than just occasionally is going to unhinge the balance of feats and abilities like Combat Reflexes and Uncanny Dodge.

The rules intentionally give players a disadvantage and then a way around them. They're flat-footed at the beginning of battle. They can get around these limitations, but at the cost of a feat, or putting a few levels into a certain character class. This achieves a balance.

Following the rules to the letter will result in some awkward situations from time to time, but these are the exceptions. In those cases, apply a bit of common sense (perhaps like your option above), but the rules remain unchanged.

 

[Gantros]

The second part here I can completely agree with, however they already know they are hostile. In a situation where two parties are aware of each other and one decides to initiate combat via a readied action, initiative dice roll first.

You are stating that "start combat = roll initiative" as if it is a firm rule, yet there is a clear example in the DMG that states something different should occur in some cases, i.e. combat-style preparatory actions can be taken without rolling initiative.

And to head off any concerns about this breaking the game by allowing everyone to have actions readied all the time, remember the conditions. Both parties must be aware of each other, and hostile. Also, neither side can be in a position to threaten the other, or take any action which would do so, without forcing an initiative roll. But if these conditions are met, preparatory combat actions, including ready actions, should be allowed prior to the initiative roll, and no one should be flat-footed.

In other words, you can't just be walking down a corridor with an action ready to strike any hostile creature that appears. Besides being a very non-specific use of the ready action (which the DMG strongly recommends against allowing), you can't be ready for something you don't even know is there. However, once you become aware of a potential threat, you can start preparing yourself for combat, and that includes specific actions like pointing your bow down the hallway and getting ready to loose an arrow as soon as an enemy rounds the corner. Initiative would still be rolled at that point, but because you effectively initiated combat by readying an action, you can eliminate the nonsense about being flat-footed.

 

[Gantros]

The rules intentionally give players a disadvantage and then a way around them. They're flat-footed at the beginning of battle. They can get around these limitations, but at the cost of a feat, or putting a few levels into a certain character class. This achieves a balance.

I disagree. Feats are reserved for special actions that require some unusual ability or talent. Pointing a crossbow at a door 30 ft. away and firing at any enemies that come through before they reach you hardly qualifies as a special ability. Any idiot could do it. What does require a special ability or feat is being able to react quickly when a situation arises for which you are not specifically prepared, e.g. you were looking somewhere else when someone came crashing through the door. And that's exactly what Combat Reflexes does. Even following my interpretation of the rules, there will still be plenty of situations where that feat will come in handy.

 

[KarinsDad]

However in general, I think KD misinterpret flat-footedness.

It is NOT a lack of awarness or suprise. It is a lack of motion.

Have you ever fought? I would guess no but I never know heh?

Taekwondo for many years.

I think you are trying to adjust your perception of reality to match the rules.

In TKD, nobody could sucker punch me if I was ready for them (i.e. ready to spar) and I am not particularly fast (just smart). If I was not ready for them, sure.

And they sure as heck could not run towards me 60 feet and attack while preventing me from moving.

Your lack of motion analysis also fails the logic test in cases such as a spell caster casting a one round spell, etc. They are more vulnerable to attack when they are aware of their opponent and expecting an attack then when they are concentrating on casting a spell that prevents movement (except for 5 feet).


The rules state that all actions are happening simultaneously. They then have a rule for round one only (i.e. flat-footed) where this is not the case. If you are last in round one, you did not move at all until your init when you suddenly charge 60 feet. In all other rounds, it can be assumed that you are performing your action simultaneously with everyone else. Not round one.

 

[atom crash]

Pointing a crossbow at a door 30 ft. away and firing at any enemies that come through before they reach you hardly qualifies as a special ability. Any idiot could do it.

Any idiot could try it. Having a certain feat -- Improved Initiative -- gives you a better chance of success.

Gantros, I think we're saying the same thing here. In your crossbow example above, there's a chance that someone coming through the door reacts faster than you can pull the trigger. Picking up the Improved Initiative feat gives you a better chance of acting faster. Again, a disadvantage and an option to get around it.

I agree with you. My point was merely that the option you posted should be used for the rare cases, the exceptions, not the norm, as there is a balance built upon these advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Bastoche]

Taekwondo for many years.

I think you are trying to adjust your perception of reality to match the rules.

So? As long as I follow the rules as written, what's the problem? Here you want to go the otehr way around i.e. change the rules to fit your perception...

In TKD, nobody could sucker punch me if I was ready for them (i.e. ready to spar) and I am not particularly fast (just smart). If I was not ready for them, sure.

And they sure as heck could not run towards me 60 feet and attack while preventing me from moving.

You are doing the mistake you accuse me of doing! On the other hand, I would conclude you have improved initiative and/or more dex than the typical guy who has not your training. According to the rules, even if you allowed everyone not to be flat-footed, since their weapons are sheathed, they couldn't even stop an armed rogue to run for the mage...

Edit: I just thought of something: A Monk with uncanny dodge can AoO a running rogue even if he lose initiative. That would better represent someone with skills in TKD

Your lack of motion analysis also fails the logic test in cases such as a spell caster casting a one round spell, etc. They are more vulnerable to attack when they are aware of their opponent and expecting an attack then when they are concentrating on casting a spell that prevents movement (except for 5 feet).

That's why it provokes and AoO. Howerver, they can still try to avoid the blow (concentration check and dex bonus vs the attack) A spellcaster with S component actually moves (and that's if he didn't 5 ft steped before) and someone who cast a spell without S component can avoid blows at will. I still stick to my point that winning initiative is NOT about awareness, it's about coordination before motioning for the fight. It may be a biased interpretation, but it follows the rule and does not demand for a change that would basically shaft the rogue.

The rules state that all actions are happening simultaneously. They then have a rule for round one only (i.e. flat-footed) where this is not the case. If you are last in round one, you did not move at all until your init when you suddenly charge 60 feet. In all other rounds, it can be assumed that you are performing your action simultaneously with everyone else. Not round one.

All action for one character. I personnally see this as each character having it's own round or so to speak all going in order of initiative. Once you hit your init score for the first time, it's one continuous round spearated by actions at each round. Anyway, my interpretation is irrelevant. The rules make all action occurs simultaneously for sake of symplicity and class/feats/skills/spells/etc mechanics are balanced with these rules in mind. Changing anything in them for sake of realism breaks the balance equilibrium. If you want a better combat system, pick another rule set There's plenty around.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

At least one other person has mentioned this, but I'll reiterate it: In a stuation where at least one party is aware of the other, I'd allow that party to "enter combat" without actually having to take a combat action. This would create a circumstance where no one is flat-footed even though swords have not yet been crossed.

Doing this would be immediately recognizable by anyone - thus the other party has the chance to initiate combat immediately. This would be a method to use in a stand-off negotiation situation, or in a bodyguards guarding the King situation.

Being "in combat" doesn't have to mean you're fighting. You can't ready an action outside of combat - but I would say that if a PC says "I ready an action," combat has begun - whether or not hostilities start immediately or after ten minutes of tense negotiation.

 

[Bastoche]

At least one other person has mentioned this, but I'll reiterate it: In a stuation where at least one party is aware of the other, I'd allow that party to "enter combat" without actually having to take a combat action. This would create a circumstance where no one is flat-footed even though swords have not yet been crossed.

Doing this would be immediately recognizable by anyone - thus the other party has the chance to initiate combat immediately. This would be a method to use in a stand-off negotiation situation, or in a bodyguards guarding the King situation.

Being "in combat" doesn't have to mean you're fighting. You can't ready an action outside of combat - but I would say that if a PC says "I ready an action," combat has begun - whether or not hostilities start immediately or after ten minutes of tense negotiation.

IMO, allowing that has only 2 (negative effects):

1) monks get free AoO (<- edit: I just realised that monks have uncanny dodge. So with the RAW, they ARE allowed those AoO)
2) rogues can't make their first round sneak attacks.

In the theif guild case, if you allow everyone to "not be flat-footed" all it does is that the rushing rogues is denied a sneak attack. The other guys having lost initiative can't stop the theif and they are not allowed AoO since they do not threaten him (not because they are flat-footed but rather because they are unarmed; unless they have improved unarmed strike or a weapon already in their hands).

Edit: A party with a monk and improved trip would make a great Wizard body guard: imagine the rogue running for the mage and falling flat on his belly due to the monk's foot being put in front of the runnig rogue's legs

 

[Parlan]

In TKD, nobody could sucker punch me if I was ready for them (i.e. ready to spar) and I am not particularly fast (just smart). If I was not ready for them, sure.

I love arguments like this.

so how many times have your sparring opponents had levels in Rogue?
How many of them had improved init and a high Dex?