D&D General How to make a villain not look stupid when players foil their plans repeatedly.

[Plutancatty]

Basically, I'm planning a campaign where the party immediately comes into direct contact with the BBEG's minions and from then on proceeds to keep getting dragged into the various steps of their "I'm going to destroy the world" plan and stopping them.

The problem is, if the party stop every step, fighting the big bad a the end has little stakes, since they know they've been able to foil him all along, so there isn't really even the threat of his master plan happening at all.

On the other hand, if the villain advances their plan no matter what the party does, then the players feel cheated and without agency.

What can I do to make sure the villain steadily becomes more dangerous and able to initiate higher level adventures for the PCs without having the PCs fail the objectives of the adventures they're playing?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Respect.

Have them acknowledge the smart things the PCs did and correct the flaw they exploited in the previous plan.

 

[billd91]

Depends on the master plan. Try to have a plan going that has multiple threads to it - PCs may encounter/have a chance to thwart some threads but not others. So the master plan can advance in some ways until the PCs have enough power to take the initiative and take him on more directly.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Another option is to pull something like The Light from Young Justice where they've maneuvered things so that a failure is still a minor win that furthers their plan.

So like they failed to summon the demon lord, but managed to gain an infernal contract out of the deal, or they failed to obtain the McGuffin, but now they've learned how to use it when they do get it, or managed to kidnap an NPC connected to it on the way out.

 

[payn]

If the master plan is a series of events, instead of a sequence, then the PC's failing can happen and the story remains interesting. If the players keep figuring things out and thwarting repeatedly, you need to step it up in your adventure writing. Let the players enjoy their earned victories, and learn to make tougher challenges for the future.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Yeah if the plan wants two steps to be done around the same time in very different areas, than the PCs can only stop one of them.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Another option is to pull something like The Light from Young Justice where they've maneuvered things so that a failure is still a minor win that furthers their plan.

So like they failed to summon the demon lord, but managed to gain an infernal contract out of the deal, or they failed to obtain the McGuffin, but now they've learned how to use it when they do get it, or managed to kidnap an NPC connected to it on the way out.

Yeah. The villain should also be allowed to fail forward.

 

[Umbran]

The problem is, if the party stop every step...

So, don't have them stop every step. There's no particular reason for the party to even know about everything the villain has going on, much less the ability to stop all of it. The PCs can hear about some of the villain's moves after the fact.

 

[Stormonu]

As above, having multiple schemes or approaches at once means it's unlikely ALL of them will fail.

Alternatively, the villian can set up a couple situations where, if the PCs win, they actually advance the villians true plot ("Ah yes, the fire demon you slew. Little did you know that he had linked his soul to the nearby volcano, which is now unleashed and usable for my unstoppable forges!", or "the Palpatine conundrum" - helping the bad guy by taking out his likewise [evil] enemies).

 

[Ancalagon]

The PCs may not always succeed?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Another option is to pull something like The Light from Young Justice where they've maneuvered things so that a failure is still a minor win that furthers their plan.

I was going to say Xanatos... but yes 100% this...

"You stopped me from doing X, but while you were distracted doing X I accomplished Y"

 

[Mort]

Basically, I'm planning a campaign where the party immediately comes into direct contact with the BBEG's minions and from then on proceeds to keep getting dragged into the various steps of their "I'm going to destroy the world" plan and stopping them.

The problem is, if the party stop every step, fighting the big bad a the end has little stakes, since they know they've been able to foil him all along, so there isn't really even the threat of his master plan happening at all.

On the other hand, if the villain advances their plan no matter what the party does, then the players feel cheated and without agency.

What can I do to make sure the villain steadily becomes more dangerous and able to initiate higher level adventures for the PCs without having the PCs fail the objectives of the adventures they're playing?

I'll echo the above advice. And add:

Don't be afraid of the PCs sometimes failing - just make sure that failure doesn't necessarily mean partial or TPK.

This, in no way, means engineer challenges to fail, just that failure SHOULD be an option and a thing.

 

[Dioltach]

Or the PCs only encounter the villain's lieutenants, who get replaced after one or two failures.

 

[Mort]

Yeah if the plan wants two steps to be done around the same time in very different areas, than the PCs can only stop one of them.

Right.

Especially effective when the PCs stop one step and then rush to stop another one - only to arrive late. Not only have they failed to stop this aspect, they KNOW they've failed and that the villain has multiple things going at once - so their task is harder than they thought.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So, don't have them stop every step. There's no particular reason for the party to even know about everything the villain has going on, much less the ability to stop all of it. The PCs can hear about some of the villain's moves after the fact.

and make the reveals grand...

(Just off the top of my head) the PCs stop the wizard from getting the book of secret arts, and then fight 3 of his mercenary demons and kill them sending them back to the abyss. They come back to town triumphant... just to learn the King has a new advisor that stepped in while they were out.
Later they get his good name destroyed and he has to flee the castle, in the aftermath they find that there was a hidden chamber where he did 7 rituals of dragonfire... they sent him packing but he already had part of what he wanted.
Now he has had set backs... he no longer has his place at court, his 3 demon knights and he still doesn't have the book of secret arts... but with the rituals channeling dragon fire into his magic he goes and burns a hole through the planes to alternate realities... and binds himself and 4 other world versions of himself (the way great wyrm dragons are made) and now has even more power... he then binds 3 corrupted angels to his service, and grants each a small dragon boon... he sends them after 3 artifacts of power (the orb of enlightenment, the Rod of the Dragon King, and the Cosmic Cube) the PCs can for 100% beat them to 1... and might be able to get to intercept a second before it gets back to him but no way without spliting up could they stop all 3, and they can't beat them if they split too much... so what do they do.
but the truth is it doesn't matter what one they stop or even if they stop all 3 because he and his new apprentice have chosen 7 named NPCs that the players like and put Geas on them... they show up crying to the PCs... he told me to tell you "XXXXX" and then to take the book... if I don't I die. bonus pts if by this point the players are descent level and none of those NPCs are a threat to them... but make them fight them anyway. but all of this (the geas the 3 artifacts) was just to get thm pissed because he has laid a trap. He has laid hard to find but not impossible trail to his secret base... but when they get there he isn't there just a death knight

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Or the PCs only encounter the villain's lieutenants, who get replaced after one or two failures.

never underestimate teh power of a good bebop and rocksteady fight

 

[Quickleaf]

Basically, I'm planning a campaign where the party immediately comes into direct contact with the BBEG's minions and from then on proceeds to keep getting dragged into the various steps of their "I'm going to destroy the world" plan and stopping them.

The problem is, if the party stop every step, fighting the big bad a the end has little stakes, since they know they've been able to foil him all along, so there isn't really even the threat of his master plan happening at all.

On the other hand, if the villain advances their plan no matter what the party does, then the players feel cheated and without agency.

What can I do to make sure the villain steadily becomes more dangerous and able to initiate higher level adventures for the PCs without having the PCs fail the objectives of the adventures they're playing?

A little of column A and a little of column B.

Break down the plan, beginning with the villain's motives (these should be more personal / more interesting than "cause I'm a crazy cultist"), and quickly looking for those phases that the PCs can intervene in, and then those steps which are happening behind the scenes or above their pay grade. They are not necessarily the same; in fact, there will usually be some very clear differences that emerge as you work your design process.

Look for non-binary outcomes and plot twists - i.e. not "the villain succeeds at opening the Hell Gate" and not "the Hell Gate is destroyed before the villain can get there", but something like "destroying the Hell Gate unleashes spirits of the dead upon the world (and among these are ancestors of the PCs) which the villain is binding to do his bidding."

The idea behind non-binary outcomes and plot twists is that it creates surprises not just for the players, but also for you as DM. So as you play, the interactable bits become less of a road map and more a collaborative drawing.

Leave the more structured road map for those things that are happening outside of the PCs' sphere of influence.

 

[Ancalagon]

There is an amazing story hour series that was made into a book series by Sagiro - it had a lot of success AND failures by the heroes.

Sagiro's Story Hour: Now That It's Over

Greetings! I thought it might be nice to have a fresh thread, where people could post comments, ask questions, and make observations if/when they go back for re-reads. I can't promise to answer every question, but I'll get to as many as I can. I imagine there will be some readers who were...

www.enworld.org

 

[aco175]

Or the PCs only encounter the villain's lieutenants, who get replaced after one or two failures.

I do like campaigns or one-shots at a convention where the PCs can pick and choose things to contribute to the overall success. I recall a game where the PCs needed to aid the village in preparing for a hoard of zombies. There was time to complete a few things and depending on how successful the PCs were, you gained bonuses to the final encounter.

 

[payn]

View attachment 254280

I do like campaigns or one-shots at a convention where the PCs can pick and choose things to contribute to the overall success. I recall a game where the PCs needed to aid the village in preparing for a hoard of zombies. There was time to complete a few things and depending on how successful the PCs were, you gained bonuses to the final encounter.

Funny you mention this, I just finished a session of Traveller. The PCs found an old ancient vault. Turns out some primitives from the society that was destroyed 200 hundred years prior, were living in front of it. They pried off a faceplate of the keypad and were using the wires for lighting and basic tools. Some other aliens that were attempting to colonize the planet (thinking it was deserted) were poisoned by a neuro toxin. It reduced them to a feral animal state. Without food, these aliens are now hungry.

The primitive folks viewed the vault as their ancestral home and said they would allow the PCs to share its bounty if they help defend against the invaders. So, they spent a good amount of time training up folks not suited for combat and making defensive positions. I guess we will see how it goes!