D&D 5E (2014) How To Make High Level 5E Work.For You +
- Thread starter Reynard
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Zardnaar
Legend
SteveC
Doing the best imitation of myself
I admit I have limited experience with it at high level but I think some of the designs are off. We are playing 5.0 so I don't know if it's been addressed in 5.5. I have been a little surprised at how it has not been as lethal as I would have expected. I don't know if this was a deliberate design choice but I don't necessarily think it was a bad decision. I know that if you want to ramp things up it will take some work, but how many players really want that kind of game? I know a lot of DMs that do, but players? Not sure.
Zardnaar
Legend
5.5 big improvement ones unique to 5.5.
Ported from 5.0 modest buffs overall same as 5.0 with power creep.
Therros and Fizbans were also interesting with mythic mechanic.
Reynard
aka Ian Eller
I don't know if this is true all the time. I am a big believer in personal stories, even at high levels. It doesn't have to be about saving the kingdom or world. Sometimes a demigoddess runs away from her arranged marriage to an Elemtal Lord to be eith her Fae Prince lover, and the PCs are caught in the middle.
kigmatzomat
Legend
Expect party creep. Familiars, steeds, homunculus, awakened trees, rocks True Polymorphed into elementals, etc. So give the baddies a couple extra CR of "class feature minions" on top of the xp budget but there's no XP reward for the PCs any more than from Summon Monster. And killing those much weaker followers has psychological and tactical loss impact.
World building should continue, don't rely on cool powers. Keep the PCs grounded and interested in the world. Heck, have some of those party creep be more than window dressing. You awakened that tree, now its got some questions about your camp fire.
Give them lands and people to protect. Let the recruit guards, village priest, a bard-librarian, alchemist-apprentice wizard, druid-herbalist, etc. Have the party spend money on books, labs, tools, etc. In return give them a couple healing potions, flasks of alchemist fire, and low-level scrolls every month or two.
Have it be somewhere with issues, so even "down time" can include goblin raids. Could even suggest they negotiate from a sense of overwhelming power.....And then later have the goblins come and ask for help when a dragon comes to claim goblin snack-slaves.
Be prepared for multiclassing. The teen levels for many classes are "...and another use of X". Picking up a other class adds flavor and options. Have suitable world building events. A Fighter-16 becoming a cleric-1 is a notable conversion and should be a big deal.
Heroes have a lot of options to avoid perma-death. So mentally treat PC death more like unconsciousness with a wake-up tax. Use up big painful AoEs on the party early and often. Expend magic items. Like, totally. Use ALL the charges on wands. That mage sustaining a spell? Eat 11 magic missiles. Goblin minions of a lich? Equip them with slings and use those flasks of alchemist fire.
Similarly have weak NPCs run away often. The fighter slaughters a bunch of goblins in one go and the rest run screaming in different directions. Then have reinforcements arrive from multiple directions, maybe in waves or clumps.
Let enemies use decent tactics. No rest, no recovery. Have a couple snipers or casters drop attacks on the party after 45 minutes. Meanwhile those 45 minutes let the enemies fall back and regroup based on what they saw in the earlier attacks.
Or maybe they cast teleport circle and the baddies just leave.
Also make the bases traps. Nothing like a Mirage Arcane to create a cave complex that is inside a volcano. By which I mean the volcano is real, its the caverns that are the Mirage. Go ahead, dispel that illusion the surrounds you. Watch that rock wall holding back the lake of lava fade.
And have the baddies use Revivify, Raise dead and Clone. Clone is really good as it encourages powerful lieutenants to fight to the death because "I'm gonna Insta-res!" and it gets the bbeg information on the heroes immediately. When one of those clone vats breaks open, the BBEG fires up Scrying on that lieutenant's base.
When they find the actual BBEG, let the BBEG slip in and out of the mix and fade back. Lich has Alter Self up to throw a Synaptic Static. The medusa-assasin uses a bow at long range. Evil cleric casts Warding Bond on its favorite lieutenant, essentially doubling its HP.
Also, when the BBEG needs to be in 2 places, use Project Image and Simulacrum. (Or ask for a Miraculous simulacrum)
Because that is what the players will do. So do it back. Or even better, do it to them first. Use it as practice. Let the players find ways to nerf those tactics. Then use what they learned back on them when they get those powers (at least when fighting older/wiser foes)
World building should continue, don't rely on cool powers. Keep the PCs grounded and interested in the world. Heck, have some of those party creep be more than window dressing. You awakened that tree, now its got some questions about your camp fire.
Give them lands and people to protect. Let the recruit guards, village priest, a bard-librarian, alchemist-apprentice wizard, druid-herbalist, etc. Have the party spend money on books, labs, tools, etc. In return give them a couple healing potions, flasks of alchemist fire, and low-level scrolls every month or two.
Have it be somewhere with issues, so even "down time" can include goblin raids. Could even suggest they negotiate from a sense of overwhelming power.....And then later have the goblins come and ask for help when a dragon comes to claim goblin snack-slaves.
Be prepared for multiclassing. The teen levels for many classes are "...and another use of X". Picking up a other class adds flavor and options. Have suitable world building events. A Fighter-16 becoming a cleric-1 is a notable conversion and should be a big deal.
Heroes have a lot of options to avoid perma-death. So mentally treat PC death more like unconsciousness with a wake-up tax. Use up big painful AoEs on the party early and often. Expend magic items. Like, totally. Use ALL the charges on wands. That mage sustaining a spell? Eat 11 magic missiles. Goblin minions of a lich? Equip them with slings and use those flasks of alchemist fire.
Similarly have weak NPCs run away often. The fighter slaughters a bunch of goblins in one go and the rest run screaming in different directions. Then have reinforcements arrive from multiple directions, maybe in waves or clumps.
Let enemies use decent tactics. No rest, no recovery. Have a couple snipers or casters drop attacks on the party after 45 minutes. Meanwhile those 45 minutes let the enemies fall back and regroup based on what they saw in the earlier attacks.
Or maybe they cast teleport circle and the baddies just leave.
Also make the bases traps. Nothing like a Mirage Arcane to create a cave complex that is inside a volcano. By which I mean the volcano is real, its the caverns that are the Mirage. Go ahead, dispel that illusion the surrounds you. Watch that rock wall holding back the lake of lava fade.
And have the baddies use Revivify, Raise dead and Clone. Clone is really good as it encourages powerful lieutenants to fight to the death because "I'm gonna Insta-res!" and it gets the bbeg information on the heroes immediately. When one of those clone vats breaks open, the BBEG fires up Scrying on that lieutenant's base.
When they find the actual BBEG, let the BBEG slip in and out of the mix and fade back. Lich has Alter Self up to throw a Synaptic Static. The medusa-assasin uses a bow at long range. Evil cleric casts Warding Bond on its favorite lieutenant, essentially doubling its HP.
Also, when the BBEG needs to be in 2 places, use Project Image and Simulacrum. (Or ask for a Miraculous simulacrum)
Because that is what the players will do. So do it back. Or even better, do it to them first. Use it as practice. Let the players find ways to nerf those tactics. Then use what they learned back on them when they get those powers (at least when fighting older/wiser foes)
Last edited:
J-H
Hero
-Ran a 13-20 campaign
-Currently have a party that just hit 18th level.
-Currently running some 20th level encounters
My thoughts:
1. Don't worry about how the party is going to solve a problem. Just make an interesting solution or challenge. They'll come up with a solution.
2. Don't allow a 5 minute working day all the time. Use time pressure to make them drain resources.
3. Don't give your spellcasting NPCs & enemies a full list of 30 prepared spells. 8 is plenty.
4. Avoid Prismatic Spray, enemy healing spells (except Heal, it's limited but chunky), and Prismatic Wall. Enemies who heal too much aren't fun to fight and Prismatic X takes too long to resolve.
5. If a player can't tell you what they're doing on their turn within a 30 second hourglass, they dodge or basic attack.
6. Lots of itty bitty minions with +4 to hit don't matter. Either omit them or run them as a squad.
7. You can handwave encounters that the party will crush. Group of paladins going after a necromancer? "You run into a group of six ghouls and cut your way through them in seconds." It's also fun for them to have this happen sometimes.
8. Don't skimp on magic items, especially for martials! Every martial character should have at least one mobility item (flight, spider climb, teleportation). By 15-17, they should also have a good signature weapon. Holy Avenger, Vorpal, Hammer of Thunderbolts, Short Sword of Backstabbing, etc.
9. Start handing out boons around level 15-18. You don't have to wait until 20. The 2014 epic boons are not great; I made a book of boons that's on the DM's Guild, and I've heard the 2024 epic boons are pretty decent.
10. Don't run dragons or other big bosses out of the box. I use multi-part dragons and I give them useful legendary actions. My favorite dragon fight I've run was a 15th or 16th level party in an elven city among the trees fighting a black dragon. It could use a legendary action to Hide (+15? something like that) and move up to half its speed at the same time. They spent several rounds maneuvering and readying actions to try to get shots on it while it hid amongst the trees and maneuvered to line up its breath weapon. Every dragon should have thematically appropriate actions like that.
11. Striking a balance between solo monsters, bosses with minions, and having too many things on the field is tough and will be different for everyone. If the party brings NPC allies, have them fight some of the enemy minions/troops just off-screen and describe it without rolling dice.
12. Tying into "no 5 minute working days," Meteor Swarm, Sunburst, Vorpal Action Surges, and barbarians who shrug everything short of a vorpal sword off are all things that will wreck some of your encounters. Feel free to have enemies use similar abilities, as long as you're aware of the party's resurrection capabilities.
-Currently have a party that just hit 18th level.
-Currently running some 20th level encounters
My thoughts:
1. Don't worry about how the party is going to solve a problem. Just make an interesting solution or challenge. They'll come up with a solution.
2. Don't allow a 5 minute working day all the time. Use time pressure to make them drain resources.
3. Don't give your spellcasting NPCs & enemies a full list of 30 prepared spells. 8 is plenty.
4. Avoid Prismatic Spray, enemy healing spells (except Heal, it's limited but chunky), and Prismatic Wall. Enemies who heal too much aren't fun to fight and Prismatic X takes too long to resolve.
5. If a player can't tell you what they're doing on their turn within a 30 second hourglass, they dodge or basic attack.
6. Lots of itty bitty minions with +4 to hit don't matter. Either omit them or run them as a squad.
7. You can handwave encounters that the party will crush. Group of paladins going after a necromancer? "You run into a group of six ghouls and cut your way through them in seconds." It's also fun for them to have this happen sometimes.
8. Don't skimp on magic items, especially for martials! Every martial character should have at least one mobility item (flight, spider climb, teleportation). By 15-17, they should also have a good signature weapon. Holy Avenger, Vorpal, Hammer of Thunderbolts, Short Sword of Backstabbing, etc.
9. Start handing out boons around level 15-18. You don't have to wait until 20. The 2014 epic boons are not great; I made a book of boons that's on the DM's Guild, and I've heard the 2024 epic boons are pretty decent.
10. Don't run dragons or other big bosses out of the box. I use multi-part dragons and I give them useful legendary actions. My favorite dragon fight I've run was a 15th or 16th level party in an elven city among the trees fighting a black dragon. It could use a legendary action to Hide (+15? something like that) and move up to half its speed at the same time. They spent several rounds maneuvering and readying actions to try to get shots on it while it hid amongst the trees and maneuvered to line up its breath weapon. Every dragon should have thematically appropriate actions like that.
11. Striking a balance between solo monsters, bosses with minions, and having too many things on the field is tough and will be different for everyone. If the party brings NPC allies, have them fight some of the enemy minions/troops just off-screen and describe it without rolling dice.
12. Tying into "no 5 minute working days," Meteor Swarm, Sunburst, Vorpal Action Surges, and barbarians who shrug everything short of a vorpal sword off are all things that will wreck some of your encounters. Feel free to have enemies use similar abilities, as long as you're aware of the party's resurrection capabilities.
Yes, it is set up to seem scary/difficult to the PCs but, at least on paper, any decent party will blow through it. Paper tiger.
But on-point, someone mentioned in another thread that a lot of high-level adventures tend to go combat-heavy. So maybe the key is to present more interesting non-combat challenges?
AnotherGuy
Hero
I have found Time Pressure, Age, Sanity, Madness, Mob Attacks, Mythic Power for Monsters, Touch attacks for Incorporeal opponents, Zones/Auras, Exhaustion and Weapon Sundering all work well to stress high level PCs.
Be creative...
Have certain psychic attacks not do damage but strip attunement,
Have dragons crush their opponents by landing on them or lifting and dropping them,
Have huge and gargantuan creatures alter the terrain around them (hit or miss) with their attacks complicating the battlefield.
Etc.
There are also interesting ways to use Traits, Bonds and Flaws - but that is a whole other discussion.
Be creative...
Have certain psychic attacks not do damage but strip attunement,
Have dragons crush their opponents by landing on them or lifting and dropping them,
Have huge and gargantuan creatures alter the terrain around them (hit or miss) with their attacks complicating the battlefield.
Etc.
There are also interesting ways to use Traits, Bonds and Flaws - but that is a whole other discussion.
TheSword
Warhammer Fantasy Imperial Plenipotentiary
The core problem is that the players can go anywhere. I think you have two choices. Up verisimilitude to 200% or up artificiality to 200%. So either establish boundaries because the PCs are so engaged with a setting they don’t want to go elsewhere or establish limits by stopping them going elsewhere.
So basically if you have a rich, fully detailed world that the PCs have been exploring for 15 levels and have met dozens if not hundreds of NPCs then use it. All those folks the PCs have helped and saved become a tool of motivation and also a resource for the group. The detailed world contains all the things the PCs might need to interact with. You can then at high levels shake it all up and have some profound threats to the world and not just to the PCs lives.
Or if you haven’t got that you need to artificially impose limits and threats. Very specific objectives - find the rod of seven parts. Challenge of champions, Demi-planes. Divine intervention. Planar bubbles. Arcane traders. Tightly bounded dungeons. Magic Resistant plagues etc. Go big or go home. It’s the Avengers school of world building/plot.
My preference is the first approach. I probably wouldn’t run the second type. I’d rather not run high level if I couldn’t do it in a rich and fully realized world. It was the biggest fault with the Age of Worms campaign. The first 7 parts deal with dozens of NPCs and threats to Diamond Lake and Greyhawk - establishing bonds. Then it creates Alhaster in part 8 which is a town full of douchebags and then threatened them at the conclusion. Which was barmy to me. A total bait and switch.
So basically if you have a rich, fully detailed world that the PCs have been exploring for 15 levels and have met dozens if not hundreds of NPCs then use it. All those folks the PCs have helped and saved become a tool of motivation and also a resource for the group. The detailed world contains all the things the PCs might need to interact with. You can then at high levels shake it all up and have some profound threats to the world and not just to the PCs lives.
Or if you haven’t got that you need to artificially impose limits and threats. Very specific objectives - find the rod of seven parts. Challenge of champions, Demi-planes. Divine intervention. Planar bubbles. Arcane traders. Tightly bounded dungeons. Magic Resistant plagues etc. Go big or go home. It’s the Avengers school of world building/plot.
My preference is the first approach. I probably wouldn’t run the second type. I’d rather not run high level if I couldn’t do it in a rich and fully realized world. It was the biggest fault with the Age of Worms campaign. The first 7 parts deal with dozens of NPCs and threats to Diamond Lake and Greyhawk - establishing bonds. Then it creates Alhaster in part 8 which is a town full of douchebags and then threatened them at the conclusion. Which was barmy to me. A total bait and switch.
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