How to rate the overkill encounter

[Greenfield]

The specific game was D&D 3.5, but the question can be asked about most role playing games.

Premise: Not every encounter is one that the party is ready for. There exist in the game world things that the party isn't yet ready to handle.

In my game we had a party of seven PCs, levels ranging from 11 to 13, who elected to go after the Big Bad of the entire campaign in his home base.

They knew that there were two distinct sets of airborne opponents on guard, but they didn't know how tough they were. The opponents were a flight of HArpy Archers, straight from the MM I, reskinned as "Flying monkeys". Seven of them, each a CR 11, should have been a tough fight for the party, particularly if the party is light on archery and/or sustained ranged combat.

The second monster was a CR 14 "Mature Adult" Black Dragon. They knew there was a Dragon there, they'd seen him at a distance, but hadn't faced him before.

To my mind this combined encounter is one where "Success" is in the form of evading/avoiding/escaping, rather than standing/fighting/winning. It isn't really winnable in the normal, straight combat sense. The only achievable goal here is to survive it, find a way past it to deal with whatever it is the monsters are guarding.

So, when it comes to handing out Exp, how would you calculate it? Full Exp for the monsters, based on the CR, seems like way too much. The PCs didn't manage to drop or drive off any of the foes. Quite the opposite, PCs were at the edge of dead (one died but I allowed something that I shouldn't: Healing, applied almost instantly by another PC within arms reach when it happened, and acting on the very next Initiative. I let it save the PC's life.

That detail aside, the party's "victory" didn't involve beating their foes in any real sense.

So how would you give out Exp for this type of thing?

 

[Sunseeker]

The fought the encounter and lost, and ran away I assume? I would give them no XP.

Typically I usually take monster XP and divide it in half. Half is for "beating the encounter" and half is for actually killing the monsters. If you find a creative way to bypass the encounter, you get half. If you manage to drive off your foes (as intelligent enemies may choose to do) you get half. If you kill the monsters, you get the other half. (and it's half per monster, so if you kill half the monsters, you get their other half of the XP, it's not all or nothing)

If they fought the encounter and barely scraped their way through to the other side, then half.

 

[Imaculata]

If the players overcome the encounter completely (by either a clever trick, forcing the opponents to retreat, getting them to surrender, or killing them), they get full exp from me. But if the players retreat, no exp. If however retreating was part of the goal, maybe make it half-exp?

Occasionally you have encounters where calculating exp is a bit tricky. I had a massive naval battle in my campaign a few weeks ago, where I didn't award exp for every pirate killed, but based on the CR of the ships that they defeated.

Another time, I created a small encounter where a bunch of giant crabs where guarding barrels of rum on an island. The druid of the party shape-shifted into a crab himself, and was able to avoid angering the monsters. I awarded full exp for that, even though only one of the crabs was actually killed by the party.

I always ask myself: Did the players beat the encounter? Or did they only beat half of it? I think about what type of game play I want to encourage in my players, and so I also award full exp for solutions that don't necessarily involve violence. I may even hand out bonus exp if the solution is particularly clever and/or in-character.

 

[OttoVonBigby]

I've done some thinking about this and developed XP guidelines for my setting, the relevant examples of which follow. These are a work-in-progress and I'm certain I'll tweak them over time.

1. Unambiguously defeating enemies--whether through killing, forcing their retreat, forcing their surrender, intimidation, bribery, or diplomacy--results in a full standard XP award. Doing so through creative tactics earns a DM-determined bonus.

2. Ambiguously defeating enemies (e.g., such that they're likely to pose a threat again) results in a minimum half standard XP award.

3. Successfully fleeing an obviously unwinnable encounter results in a smaller DM-determined XP award (no more than half standard, or alternately the challenge rating of the escape itself).

4. Fleeing or evading an arguably winnable encounter results in an XP award ranging from zero to no more than one-quarter standard, at the DM's discretion. Fleeing such an encounter after defeating some enemies but not others awards standard XP for the defeated enemies only.

5. Winning a contest that doesn't quite constitute an "encounter" (e.g. sparring against allies, or trying to gain a minor social advantage over someone) results in an XP award of about one-quarter to one-third standard. (Thus, a campaign involving political manipulators and urban ne'er-do-wells will often involve slower advancement--but such characters often aren't really "heroes" in the classic fantasy sense anyway.)

6. Being unambiguously defeated results in either no experience or (as circumstances dictate) a small DM-determined roleplaying award.

7. Reaching some significant campaign milestone (e.g. attaining some position or title, obtaining or disposing of a major artifact) results in an XP award ranging from the equivalent of a Challenging encounter to about 100 XP per character level.

 

[Greenfield]

Oddly, this question just came up again in my game.

The first time the PCs were trying to access a dream-world version of the Palace of the High King. This was guarded by "Flying Monkeys" (re-skinned Harpy Archers, straight from the book), one per PC, and a CR 14 Dragon. Party level is 11 through 13.

This was actually designed to be a barrier that couldn't be bypassed by most normal means. Absolutely not winnable by straight combat.

That was what inspired the question originally.

Then this past game session, after the party had managed to escape in the right direction (i.e. they got into the palace) they faced the Big Bad himself who cast Blasphemy and sent almost all of them back to the waking world. The Paladin made his Will Save (a Save he really wanted to fail, oddly enough), so he remained. Paralyzed for 9 minutes, weakened (only 2 points of Strength loss on 2 D6) and Dazed. Last seen he was turned into a statue, posed heroically with his flaming sword held aloft, and placed as a floor lamp. Not dead, and definitely recoverable, but out for the moment.

After some recovery, including the Scry that showed them the Paladin's fate, and a 24 hour wait period (required after being sent home via Blasphemy), they decided to try again.

They'd been assaulting the wrong castle for their goal, which was to rescue another PC who was being held in the dream world, and they'd realized it. Trying to find a way physically back to the Dream Realm, they discovered a portal/rift right in town. I had rolled direction, distance, and how long it would be open, and the dice said it was in town.

When we roll a "Direction dice" we use a D6. Whichever way the 1 pip faces is the direction. I rolled a 1, so it's in town, someplace up. The only real high point was the tallest tower in the Palace. They have access to the waking-world version, so they pursued that avenue.

It was pointed out that they'd have to find their way out of that version of the palace, with the exits guarded by the same opponents who had just thrashed them within an inch of their lives. They were okay with that.

In the dream realm the dragon had a "nest" wrapped around the top of that same tower, and they'd seen him there. I don't know why they weren't expecting him to be in that same place.

They moved very quietly until they had gone down one floor and found it full of treasure: The Dragon's hoard. Two characters, not the light footed types, tried walking across the heaps of gold without disturbing it, to reach the exit door. They saw that the Dragon had the tip of his tail coming in a window and tucked into the heap, and they tried this anyway. He woke up and all hell broke loose. (Not exactly a surprise there.)

Long story short, one PC ended up diving into the pile ala Scrooge McDuck, trying to scoop as much loot into his Bag of Holding as he could before fleeing. I allowed for a D1000 gold per round. While most everyone else decided to exit through the portal, the remaining heavy fighter in the party stopped to fight the Dragon, more or less one on one.

Dragon used Snatch to grab him, then flew up for two rounds and spit him out, with a Dragon's Breath chaser, after which he fell 250 feet to the ground, all while getting perforated with arrows from the Flying Monkeys. (Average 12 points per hit, with seven of them that miss him only on a "1". Doesn't take a lot of that to ruin your whole day.)

Needless to say, he splatted.

This time I'm calling it a real defeat. They got barely more money than it will take to pay for a Res' for the fighter (one of them got splattered with his blood when he hit the tower on the way down), and he'll come back with no gear at all. That stayed with his body, and is only recoverable from that dragon's hoard.

As for Exp from the first encounter? Apparently they learned nothing from it, so I'm suddenly questioning the 1/2 Exp award they got for it.

Oh, and they're no closer to their goal than they were before. They need the Wiz to de-petrify the Paladin, and they'll need full strength if they're to have any chance against that Dragon, and I don't know why she swallowed the fly. Perhaps she'll die...

 

[ElectricDragon]

All the previous answers are strange answers from my prospective.

It is an unwinnable encounter as you described it. Survival then should be the best possible result. Denying or cutting down experience for successfully thwarting the encounter (by actually living through it) should award normal xp; no matter if they did it the "proper" way or not.

Now, if the party fell apart, did not work together, argued among themselves, let allies die that they could have saved; then cut down or deprive them of xp for the encounter.

But if the only possible success is just survival; survival should then reap full awards. I might even give a little bonus to the guy that saved his party member by being in the right place at the right time with the right magic/skill/item (that is heroic, right?)

P.S. I just read the new post.
Just wondering, is there a way for this party to win at all? Why worry about xp if the party is too low-leveled, dumb, reckless, or magic poor to win the encounter. From your description, they have lost multiple party members, more each time they try to rescue the last one.

 

[Greenfield]

Sometimes, when you have a chance to see an encounter ahead of time, as this group did on both occasions, "success" means finding a way to void the encounter entirely.

In this case the party had faced the Flying Monkeys archers before, and had faced other airborne opponents in the course of play. They knew how poorly equipped and prepared for such an exchange. Several PCs have no ranged combat ability to speak of.

The Fighter/Warmage is proficient with bow, has faced this problem, has had time, money and opportunity to get bow and yet hasn't.

The heavy fighter who just died has a crossbow, even though he's proficient in the faster firing short and long bows.

The Cleric has spells, but no bow.

So I suppose part of the problem with the unwinnable encounter is, why is it unwinnable?

If it's obvious that the party is just plain outmatched, and they can see that before they walk in, then maybe they shouldn't walk in.

If they're outmatched because they aren't prepared, and had every opportunity to prepare, what then? Exp, full or partial for getting your butt kicked *because* you didn't prepare?

Sometimes my 10+ level party encounters low level highwaymen or Orc raiders, encounters that hardly rate as speed bumps. The world doesn't level up with the party. There's stuff they can walk over near-effortlessly, and stuff they aren't ready for.

So question: Should the hapless highwaymen, who made the near fatal mistake of waylaying the PC party that's six or more levels higher than they are, all gain one or two full levels of Exp from getting trashed, arrested and sent off to prison? Because they survived?

By the same token, should a low level PC party gain a level or two by successfully running away from a Dragon or other "in way over their head" encounter?

Hence my original question: How much exp do you award to someone whose only real victory was that they didn't get killed?

 

[Eltab]

If the PCs "victory" was "We figured out we were way over our heads and organized a retreat; somebody took turns rear-guarding for the rest &c" then give say 1/10 XP.
If they fled in a rout, nothing. Anybody can run away.

Try to reward them for tactics and sticking together, when there is nothing else to celebrate.

 

[Greenfield]

I'm up for giving posthumous bonuses to the fallen PC. I believe he tried to keep the dragon busy while others made their way out. It wasn't his fault that the others were busy trying to scoop up piles of treasure instead of running like hell.

But every time there's been a serious threat the Rogue runs for the hills, the Paladin turns to face it, the Druid turns into a bird and flees, and... You get the picture, no teamwork at all. They scatter.

Oh, they'll pull back together when someone's in trouble but their immediate reaction, well I'd label it "Organized Chaos" but so far it's not that organized.

It may sound like I'm bad-mouthing my players behind their backs, but at least one of them reads these forums, and several players already discussed the issue. As in, "The next time the Rogue runs off by herself like that, let's let her get killed.", in response to her perennial "run for the hills" maneuver whenever trouble starts. I advised them, in fact, that if they didn't start pulling together they should prepare spare characters.

So far, two spare characters are in play.

We'll see what happens this weekend. It will be the last game for a while, as I have a seven weekend commitment coming up. We'll see how it plays out.

 

[ElectricDragon]

I apologize for totally misreading your original post.

So the party has come up with neither new tactics nor ideas for combatting the flying monkeys?

Off the top of my head, rules of engagement:
1. Always look to equalize your opponent.

Fog, smoke, darkness (unless opponents have darkvision), wind, and rain will all mess with missile weapons. Not to mention missile protection spells, blur, and a gazillion other arcane spells. In addition, fog and smoke allow your rogue to hide from their obscuring properties. Smoke has drawback of choking those within it, but whatever works. No missile weapons = melee range.

Wind and/or rain can take out flying ability. (Control Winds, Control Weather). Non-flying monkeys are much easier to deal with. Or add flying to the party to equalize things (bird: not so much, maybe hawk or eagle).

winged flying creatures have to land when subjected to a certain percentage of damage to their total hp, so dealing damage any way could knock some out of the sky (produce flame should be especially good versus feathered wings, DM choice).

Battlefield control spells (grease, slow, etc.) will work better on grounded opponents. Slow affects fly speed to remain in flight (unless the monkeys can hover, almost a necessity when using bows)

2. Look for your own advantages.
Some of the same things from above apply here: fog, smoke, darkness (Hide); invisibility, blur, mirror image, etc.; flying ability or high winds to remove that ability; battlefield control spells (various wall spells to constrain the area, grease, haste, etc.) Summoned allies (animals, monsters, demons, devils, angels, or modrons), especially when used to flank the enemy.

buff spells (barkskin, armor, shield, aid, bless, prayer, etc.)