How to respectfuly disagree with EGG?

[Rechan]

With the resurgence in the last few years with the "Old School" style of gaming, it's clear there's a lot of people who hold the Gygaxian style very high, for multiple different reasons. Not to mention those who just really respect and appreciate Gary, either as a person, a game designer, or the father of the roleplaying game.

But, with that coupled with Gary's passing, I have a problem.

People are sensitive. Especially about their gaming, and their heroes. How does one go about expressing disagreement/dislike for aspects of Gygaxian/Old School D&D without it coming across as disrespecting EGG?

Specifically, some gamers will quote Gygax, or say "This is what he MEANT and how he INTENDED the game to be played", with the intention of giving their argument the weight of Gary's stance. If Gygax's opinion (nay, philosophy) holds little sway with me, how do I say that without offending?

 

[Byronic]

Could you give an example?

 

[Aus_Snow]

People are sensitive. Especially about their gaming, and their heroes. How does one go about expressing disagreement/dislike for aspects of Gygaxian/Old School D&D without it coming across as disrespecting EGG?

Specifically, some gamers will quote Gygax, or say "This is what he MEANT and how he INTENDED the game to be played", with the intention of giving their argument the weight of Gary's stance. If Gygax's opinion (nay, philosophy) holds little sway with me, how do I say that without offending?

Some citations might help here. Also, are you sure that is what they were doing / attempting / intending / thinking?

Anyhow, whatever the case, just say so. That is, just say what you want to say, so long as it's not incredibly rude or otherwise exceedngly innapropriate, obviously. So, if you happen to think about D&D in a different way, say so. If you happen to vastly prefer 4e to AD&D (for example), say so. IMO, this doesn't have to be as touchy or complicated as it appears you might believe.

Essentially, I don't think many people out there (inc. fans of old school D&D, actually) could care less if you (or I, or even hordes of other gamers) don't agree with Gary about, well, just about anything. Or, for that matter, if you [or whoever] happen to disagree with said fans about pretty much anything either. Er, as long as it's kept clean and civil.

I just can't remember seeing the kind of scenario you seem to be suggesting is common enough to be familiar with. So, it's possible (but I'm not saying it's definitely the case, because I just don't know for sure) that you're simply assuming people are going about things that way (and, therefore, you might be wrong about that).

I have come across some dedicated *fans* of EGG, certainly. And some who knew him for some time, and got along well with the fellow. Even some who worked with him. But none of these people has expressed anything quite like what you've proposed in your post there.

In summary: How to respectfully disagree with EGG? Respectfully disagree with EGG. Really.

 

[JohnRTroy]

Having known the man, I can say the following.

You can disagree with EGG on several things and he wouldn't mind.

One discussion I had with him before he died was about the compartmentalized mentality of fans. I mentioned that there are people who have a lot of hostility towards stuff that was created in his absence and how it stigmatizes newer fans and people like myself who can love both Gygax and Greenwood, 1e and 3e, games that follow his philosophy and games that didn't, etc.

I'll never forget his response--"sure, you can love 'Rotten Realms and other things, I don't mind". In that, I can sum up his more extreme opinions in one manner--don't expect him to not express his strong opinions, but he's not setting them down as a verdict to be obeyed. I've never seen or heard Gary being rude to fans in the way of dismissing their game type. Condemnation of the style (FR to him was "too detailed" and a little too story-based), didn't mean that he condemned the creator (EGG approved a lot of what Greenwood did back in the Dragon days, and Greenwood was one of the few TSR people who ended up making sure Gary got a thank you in his sourcebook on the Drow), or the fans.

I know I disagreed with a few things he felt strongly about--I think EGG was not a good designer of an introductory game, because of his verbal style. (While I loved reading his Gygaxian prose, in my older days I see some of it akin to the poor documentation found in many open source projects and the RTFM/write it yourself attitudes). If I disagreed enough to annoy him, I wouldn't discuss the subject, much as friends would avoid discussing political or religious differences.

I think saying that you think he was wrong about certain aspects of the D&D game is okay. If it annoys other fans, that's okay, provided I think it's done in a respectful manner and you don't phrase it in words "Gygax was an idiot" or anything like that.

(When I started the other respect a few days ago about "how too honor/respect Gary", I was specifically speaking about quoting and attributing, researching and understanding--I want to make sure if people are researching or quoting him, that they do it completely and accurately, and do their best not to manipulate quotes. I certainly don't think you have to agree with (or even like) Gary.)

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Specifically, some gamers will quote Gygax, or say "This is what he MEANT and how he INTENDED the game to be played", with the intention of giving their argument the weight of Gary's stance. If Gygax's opinion (nay, philosophy) holds little sway with me, how do I say that without offending?

"While I see where you're coming from, I disagree, and don't feel beholden to play my game the way you're telling my Gygax stated. I doubt we'll come to an agreement regarding this, so let's just leave it at that."

 

[Melan]

How to respectfuly disagree with EGG?

This is going to be a totally obvious response, but do just that. If you are being respectful, there should be no case against you. Granted, people may still disagree back, so you might want to be prepared for that.

 

[Wayside]

Specifically, some gamers will quote Gygax, or say "This is what he MEANT and how he INTENDED the game to be played", with the intention of giving their argument the weight of Gary's stance. If Gygax's opinion (nay, philosophy) holds little sway with me, how do I say that without offending?

The way you just said it, I think. It isn't necessarily relevant how games are intended to be played, no more so than how houses are intended to be lived in. When it's your house you can do whatever you want with it. Who cares what the architect had in mind?

 

[Rechan]

It isn't necessarily relevant how games are intended to be played, no more so than how houses are intended to be lived in. ... Who cares what the architect had in mind?

Some people do put more stock in "This is the TRADITIONAL way to do it".

I can't cite an example. I just know I've seen it done: citing the 1e DMG, or one of Gary's quotes, and then saying, "See? That's how it is. The end."

This extends to things like "School wars". If you go on Dragonsfoot, they refer to 3etards and 4orons. I am certain that you can easily find people, even those here, that think Old School is the only way to do it, and when you deviate from that, "It's not D&D".

And while their opinion has little baring on ME, that doesn't mean I don't want to argue with them. I just want to be able to say I don't care what Gary said/thought without being accused of speaking ill of a dead man.

 

[Oni]

Just disagree as you would in any kind of polite conversation. If you've maintained a normal level of civility and the other party is still offended, it's likely the problem lies not with you, but them.

 

[Fifth Element]

I'll never forget his response--"sure, you can love 'Rotten Realms and other things, I don't mind". In that, I can sum up his more extreme opinions in one manner--don't expect him to not express his strong opinions, but he's not setting them down as a verdict to be obeyed.

Respectfully, it's interesting to see he wasn't above name-calling when it came to things he didn't like.