How To Resurrect D&D Miniatures

[Oryan77]

If thats so-then how the Helen of Troy does a non-random minis game like Warhammer survive?

They aren't pre-painted, they aren't even glued together are they? The problem isn't simply "minis". The problem is "pre-painted minis". Packaging and selling non random pre-painted minis is expensive. Which is why the few pre-painted minis Warhammer does have cost a lot. And if they were having great success with those, I'd imagine they'd be releasing way more than they do now.

Maybe if the tokens don't do well and people still buy the board game for the unpainted minis, WotC might start releasing unpainted minis, and even doing them non random since they are not random in the boardgame.

What reasons are there that non-random won't work?

Because if it would have worked, why wouldn't WotC have done it? I mean hell, who doesn't want to make money? They aren't making the boosters random because they think it is more fun. They do it to make a good enough profit that will allow them to keep selling minis.

I'm not going to pretend like I know better than an industry specializing in making & selling toys. I'm not going to act like I know more than WotC knows about how to get the most profit out of selling pre-painted plastic minis. I'm pretty sure they did their research. I'm sure they tried to find the cheapest way to paint and mold them, and use the cheapest (best) plastic they could in order to sell them at an affordable price and make a good profit.

If you guys think you know better than the people at WotC in charge of selling minis, please, contact them with your ideas and get our minis back! But I have a feeling you aren't going to say anything to them that they haven't already considered.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

If you guys think you know better than the people at WotC in charge of selling minis, please, contact them with your ideas and get our minis back! But I have a feeling you aren't going to say anything to them that they haven't already considered.

Speaking personally, I (honestly) would never claim that I "know better" than anybody about business. On the other hand, WotC has shown to my satisfaction with many decisions going back a few years that they are not business and marketing whiz-kids, so I think it's a mistake to believe that they have always made and will always make optimal or near-optimal business/marketing decisions. And thus it's a mistake to dismiss suggestions, based on belief in their business/marketing prowess.

 

[Oryan77]

And thus it's a mistake to dismiss suggestions, based on belief in their business/marketing prowess.

If people know first hand and have the facts that show how and why WotC failed in their minis line, then by all means criticize their business practices. But we're looking in as fans of miniatures with no clue as to what actually causes them to not profit from the line.

My personal assumption is that it got worse after canceling the skirmish game. But for all I know, providing rules and support for the game was losing them money. So rather than make no money, they tried it without the skirmish game. All I can do is just use common sense & my best judgment. As much as I would like to be critical of WotC; in this case, I just find it hard to believe that they didn't try everything they could think of to make the miniatures line an ongoing profitable success. Which means, I'd like to think that they already considered all the options that people have been discussing in threads like this.

But who knows, maybe they are a bunch of morons and you guys should be hired on to sell minis. It's not like I want to see the minis gone, I love the little bastards.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

If people know first hand and have the facts that show how and why WotC failed in their minis line, then by all means criticize their business practices. But we're looking in as fans of miniatures with no clue as to what actually causes them to not profit from the line.

Maybe not. But we know -- axiomatically, better than they do -- why it was that we stopped buying them. And -- again, I know nothing about business, so to that extent feel free to continue to dismiss what I'm saying -- I've always thought that "people buying your stuff" and "making a profit by producing your stuff" were linked pretty strongly.

 

[Beginning of the End]

2. Include monster cards for the new D&D board games (Ravenloft and Ashardalon). Anecdotal reports indicate the new board game has been very successful selling out in many places when first released. Its a great game, and new monsters can be inserted into it very easily.

Unfortunately not as true as it could be: Game balance requires 3 copies of each monster, and for the monsters to be swapped out.

Which is not to say that this isn't a good idea. Just not quite as simple as "throw a monster in there".

3. Included a second card providing stats for an all new D&D skirmish game, stealing ideas from all the best rival skirmish rules out there. There's nothing like a completive environment to boost sales as Magic has shown us.

I think this is the big one. They axed the DDM game because it wasn't 4E-based and a couple product cycles later the miniatures line was axed. The rising cost of plastics may have influenced that decision, but miniature lines that aren't associated with specific miniature wargames have been dropping like flies in the past decade. And once WotC's miniature line was no longer associated with a specific miniature wargame... it dropped.

If thats so-then how the Helen of Troy does a non-random minis game like Warhammer survive?

Limited variety with demand fueled by specific army lists.

Random boosters didn't make a line of miniatures possible. It did, however, make it possible for the miniatures line to support obscure sculpts. The result is that the D&D miniatures provided more depth and breadth of selection than any other line of fantasy miniatures in history. And did so at very affordable prices.

 

[shadzar]

Because if it would have worked, why wouldn't WotC have done it?

Because of their ignorance?

If you guys think you know better than the people at WotC in charge of selling minis, please, contact them with your ideas and get our minis back! But I have a feeling you aren't going to say anything to them that they haven't already considered.

The problem is they don't know what they are doing. Their business models have been floundering for al things except Magic The Gathering for years. They take Chainmail and Dreamblade as the examples for why non random minis wont sell. But neglect to take into account that reasons those games didn't sell.

1. Metal minis requiring assembly. Even Warhammer fans dislike the mountains of metal to assemble.

2. Chainmail and Dreamblade sucked as games.

So they are loading their considerations with data that allows them to say what they want, rather than correct data. HASBRO has been selling toys for years, and they don't randomize hidden product. Also people moved away form collectible miniature games rather quickly. EVen the lead company went out of business for months until purchased by another company. So random pre-paints don't work.

Ideas were given long ago, and just recently put into place. Looks at the board games. non-painted non-random miniatures. It is working. But the price is still a bit high for a set. Imagine Ravenloft came with an adventure to run for 4th edition. Then you cover both markets well. I really don't care about the silly game itself, but the minis will be had for D&D use. An adventure or instructions to tie the board game into D&D to cros promote would serve to go a LOT farther.

It isn't like they really are spending money on the minis anymore as they are just reusing old molds. So all that cost to develop is spent on the skirmish game line. Soon they will learn that jsut packing the minis up for sale in boxes, even random assortments of undead, and people will buy them. Maybe they want them for D&D, or want more for Ravenloft. I recall a time when people could buy space things for Monopoly without having to buy the entire game again, but the price is so low these days to make the spare parts market obsolete.

So they ARE taking ideas finally but it has taken them going on 3 to 4 years to try it, because they thought they knew best, when in fact they have no idea what they are doing in regards to minis and toys. HASBRO has probably stepped in at this point to direct them in the ways of toys as they were probably doing like the rest of us and wondering "what the hell?" as minis keep faltering, while HASBRO shoves My Little Pony in Happy Meals every year. So HASBRO already knows how to make "minis" work, but WotC wants to think of themselves as king and can do no wrong.

The biggest problem is WotC has become the new Games Workshop by doing what they want and thinking people will just buy it, but unlike GW, WotC games have sucked. It might be too late, but they are finally listening to the ideas of the customers, and it is working.

 

[pukunui]

From my observations it looked like the experiment with visible miniatures failed. Store shelves filled up with unicorns and aboleths that nobody wanted. So like it or not random booster packs are the way forward.

Not necessarily. Another alternative is to ensure that all visible minis are equally desirable. A unicorn as the visible mini wasn't a particularly good idea. Having a Balor and a Huge Beholder as visible minis were great ideas.

 

[Oryan77]

Because of their ignorance?.......

Well, it sounds like you have it all figured out.

If you can get the funding, you should try your luck at selling pre-painted plastic non random minis. There are a lot of us that would love to invest some money into them. I'll even help you sell them. By your own logic, you should be quite successful. Not investing in this would be insane!

 

[Firebeetle]

Here's my little business plan that I've got rattling around in my head:

1.) Sculpt miniatures to match the various types of fairly common mons-ters in D&D. Such as zombies, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, gnolls, kobolds, etc. That means all the different types of zombies, for examle. miniatures a sculpted to be easy to paint by the method detailed below.
2.) Cast in pewter or tin, or even a high quality resin.
3.) Paint by priming with the actual primary color (blue-grey for zombies, green for orcs, red for kobolds, etc.) Paint on other colors as necessary, and then use the "dip" method of thinned woodstain as a combo ink wash/sealant.

There you have it, a simple product that meets gamer needs, is simple to produce, and even uses all American labor. If successful in it's "Horde of Bad Guys" line, then we can consider making other monsters.

All I need for this to happen is a sculpter, any takers?

 

[shadzar]

Well, it sounds like you have it all figured out.

If you can get the funding, you should try your luck at selling pre-painted plastic non random minis. There are a lot of us that would love to invest some money into them. I'll even help you sell them. By your own logic, you should be quite successful. Not investing in this would be insane!

Which par of unpainted to you somehow means pre-painted?

Pre-painted is part of the problem, because the cost/price is too high. Ravenloft does NOT have painted minis in it.