How Visible To players Should The Rules Be?

[Thomas Shey]

This should also be true for the player. The GM also has take it on faith that the player is also good enough at firewalling that knowledge.

I generally agree, but between the people who don't want to be doing that, and the people who don't trust players to do that, that's not how the conventional wisdom goes here.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Faster than most does not really tell me anything. Slightly faster than you does.

When I GM the reason I tend to lean on numbers (in addition to detailed descriptions) is that numbers allow each individual player to assess things relative to their own character rather than some baseline that might differ from person to person.

If the way people viewed "slightly" was more consistent, I'd probably agree with your first sentence here, but experience doesn't tell me it is, so I agree fervently with your second.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Your telling me that your wrestling, martial arts and "dumb kid in the Army in the 90s" (whatever that means) + whatever sparring, grappling, and real stakes conflicts hasn't afforded you the ability to size up the most dangerous individual among a group of individuals before actually being involved in a fight?

You can't instantly evaluate someone's ape index, their ease and efficiency and suddenness of movement, the athleticism (or not) of their natural gait, their shoulder to hip ratio, their hand/finger/wrist length and size, whether their ears are cauliflowered or their nose is subtly crooked?

I mean...come on. There is no one I know who has been involved in the fight game/martial arts/live sparring or grappling that would say what you just said. That_is_laughable. Its trivial to identify dangerous people before you're forced into a violent confrontation. Trivial.

And the moment a dangerous person with actual striking or grappling prowess squares up against you? No exchange. Just squares up. Its trivial to identify a wrestler who is going to shoot a double leg vs a kickboxer who is going to teep and manage distance vs a BJJ player who looks for a single leg entry away from danger and looks to immediately establish an underhook and wrist control vs most everyone else who has absolutely zero idea of what they're doing (but they're still dangerous because they're still a highly evolved chimp).

If you're telling me that you have no ability to distinguish levels and types of danger in various humans, then I'll take your word for it. But that has absolutely nothing to say about how trained fighters in the real world with a large amount of live sparring distinguish danger and certainly how that would play out in D&D-world where dangerous people are involved in dangerous, life-or-death conflict routinely (and therefore the survivor bias would 100 % select for people with extraordinary ability to distinguish the magnitude and type of danger in front of them).

This whole post comes off as rather elitist to me, like anyone with experiences similar to yours should feel the same way as you, and feeling otherwise is "laughable".

 

[James Gasik]

It is, however, a trope in lots of media that a trained warrior can size up opponents instantly. Some can go even farther, an predict how a fight will go (the "Awesome by Analysis" trope in action- some examples include Jack Reacher or the movie version of Robert McCall). In Asian media, opponents can envision entire battles before a single sword is swung (there's a nice example of this in Jet Li's "Hero").

Is it realistic? I don't really care. It's entertaining! And so what if it's fantastic? Isn't D&D a fantasy game? What's wrong with having fantastic elements in your fantasy game? Too often, there seems to be this line in the sand about what fantasy is acceptable for D&D and what isn't that just boggles the mind.

I mean think about it, you want to say that characters and creatures in the game don't know what an opponent's AC is...but at how many tables does a character or creature know what the result of an attack roll is so that they can use a defensive ability like Shield? Ditto for knowing what a damage roll result is so you can decide if this is the moment you should use an ability that reduces incoming damage.

And even as I type that, I'm sure I'm going to get comments such as "I ban Shield", "I never tell my players how well they were hit", and "I never tell players how much damage they take, I merely describe the hits", lol.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I generally agree, but between the people who don't want to be doing that, and the people who don't trust players to do that, that's not how the conventional wisdom goes here.

To be fair, players have a strong incentive in combat not to firewall their knowledge. Why make that harder for them than is necessary?

 

[Micah Sweet]

It is, however, a trope in lots of media that a trained warrior can size up opponents instantly. Some can go even farther, an predict how a fight will go (the "Awesome by Analysis" trope in action- some examples include Jack Reacher or the movie version of Robert McCall). In Asian media, opponents can envision entire battles before a single sword is swung (there's a nice example of this in Jet Li's "Hero").

Is it realistic? I don't really care. It's entertaining! And so what if it's fantastic? Isn't D&D a fantasy game? What's wrong with having fantastic elements in your fantasy game? Too often, there seems to be this line in the sand about what fantasy is acceptable for D&D and what isn't that just boggles the mind.

I mean think about it, you want to say that characters and creatures in the game don't know what an opponent's AC is...but at how many tables does a character or creature know what the result of an attack roll is so that they can use a defensive ability like Shield? Ditto for knowing what a damage roll result is so you can decide if this is the moment you should use an ability that reduces incoming damage.

And even as I type that, I'm sure I'm going to get comments such as "I ban Shield", "I never tell my players how well they were hit", and "I never tell players how much damage they take, I merely describe the hits", lol.

Because if you don't draw a line somewhere, anything goes, which for some folks makes the setting meaningless.

 

[TwoSix]

This whole post comes off as rather elitist to me, like anyone with experiences similar to yours should feel the same way as you, and feeling otherwise is "laughable".

Looks to me like an argument for actual simulationism.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It is, however, a trope in lots of media that a trained warrior can size up opponents instantly. Some can go even farther, an predict how a fight will go (the "Awesome by Analysis" trope in action- some examples include Jack Reacher or the movie version of Robert McCall). In Asian media, opponents can envision entire battles before a single sword is swung (there's a nice example of this in Jet Li's "Hero").

Is it realistic? I don't really care. It's entertaining! And so what if it's fantastic? Isn't D&D a fantasy game? What's wrong with having fantastic elements in your fantasy game? Too often, there seems to be this line in the sand about what fantasy is acceptable for D&D and what isn't that just boggles the mind.

I mean think about it, you want to say that characters and creatures in the game don't know what an opponent's AC is...but at how many tables does a character or creature know what the result of an attack roll is so that they can use a defensive ability like Shield? Ditto for knowing what a damage roll result is so you can decide if this is the moment you should use an ability that reduces incoming damage.

And even as I type that, I'm sure I'm going to get comments such as "I ban Shield", "I never tell my players how well they were hit", and "I never tell players how much damage they take, I merely describe the hits", lol.

Shield is actually broken unless you allow a gap for the player to cast it after the roll and before the result is announced.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Looks to me like an argument for actual simulationism.

If you agree with the poster's point of view. If not, the debate rages on.

Any particular reason you felt the need to be cute here? Have I made similar teasing comments about your preferences?

 

[Corinnguard]

Looks to me like an argument for actual simulationism.

How is this different from the belief that our own reality is nothing more than a simulation?