How would a Troll, Ogre and Ghaele go epic?

[Pinotage]

The 3.5e FAQ indicated that a monster goes epic once its character level reaches 20. Character level is defined as racial HD plus class level.

This results in some weirdness where high HD critters are concerned, since a dragon with 1 level in sorceror would all of a sudden be a epic character.

Pinotage

 

[Vrecknidj]

From the SRD: "Epic characters-those whose character level is 21st or higher-are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters."

That said, there are "epic" monsters in the SRD that have over 20 hit dice, and have some epic feats in their stat blocks. I don't know that there's a clear ruling on your particular question anywhere.

I suppose I might go with something like a hybrid answer for a PC. If the other characters in the group are epic, then if a particular PC has an ECL of 21, then he's epic too.

Dave

 

[ruleslawyer]

Andy Collins clarified this in an e-mail to me a while back. The ELH (and the 3.5 DMG0 control here, and the ELH (see sidebar p.25) very clearly states that a creature of ECL 21 or higher is an epic character qualified to take epic feats. Likewise, the 3.5 DMG says the following:

MONSTERS AS EPIC CHARACTERS
These epic rules work for monsters with character levels, using the creature’s effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels.

According to Andy, the FAQ just got it a bit wrong. While EAB and epic save bonuses are based off character level (not counting LA), access to epic feats is based off ECL (counting LA).

That means that your ghaele (HD 10, LA +10) may take epic feats once it's completed its monster level progression and takes its 1st class level thereafter; your troll (HD 6, LA +5) is eligible at its 10th class level following completion of progression; and your ogre (HD 4, LA +2) becomes eligible at the 15th class level following completion of its progression. However, your ghaele only starts accruing EAB and epic save bonuses on its 11th class level; your troll on its 15th; and your ogre on its 17th.

 

[NPC]

[hijack]

So what's your experience been of the ghaele in play? I've been toying with the idea of asking my DM for a ghaele cohort for a PC of mine, at an appropriate "level" via the Savage Species 20 level progression. But I don't want the cohort to completely overwhelm the campaign...

[/hijack]

Well, I'm divided on the issue. I pride myself on being a good enough DM to handle any type of character. But the Ghaele has thrown a wrench in my adventures on more than one occasion.

Once the Ghaele gets incorporeality, things get a bit dicey. My Ghaele player is constantly flying through walls. The ball form's rays are also a pain, because they are touch attacks that bypass DR (if I remember correctly).

Their lack of HP is a minus, but once again, incorporeality more than makes up for this. Also, their aura of good is a pain to adjudicate, because you have to remember the radius, know if your enemy is evil, and assess penalties accordingly. The gaze is a pain as well, because like it or not your BBEG will eventually fail that will save . . .

She's at a point were she gets cure light wounds at will, so if the party can rest, even for a few minutes, there's a good chance that the party can be healed up quickly.

All of these powers just mean more work for the DM. I'm currently running the Dungeon Adventure Path, and if I don't modify the encounters, the party will waltz through them. I'm constantly upping ELs, and having to tweak things without being too obvious that I'm trying to make it challenging for the Ghaele.

Anyway, short answer, I think the Ghaele could steel the thunder from some of the other players.

ruleslawyer, thanks for the references!

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Oops. Okay, so I was off by a level.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

One way to solve the problem of the Ghaele flying through walls is to have one of your NPCs realize than an attack from ethereal creatures or creatures that can access and stride through the material and ethereal planes leaves him/her defenseless. Therefore s/he constructs a series of walls (grounds and ceilings included) on the ethereal in the space that correlates to the material plane. Problem solved.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Their lack of HP is a minus, but once again, incorporeality more than makes up for this.

True. But the Ghaele can't cast spells in its Alternate Form. So to use any of its cleric mojo, it has to take humanoid (and thus vulnerable) form.

Also, their aura of good is a pain to adjudicate, because you have to remember the radius, know if your enemy is evil, and assess penalties accordingly.

Yes, I can see how this would add complications to the game. A standard Protection from Evil isn't a big deal, because it's one-person. But the Ghaele's Celestial Aura is 20' I believe.

The gaze is a pain as well, because like it or not your BBEG will eventually fail that will save . . .

Well, unless I'm misremembering, the gaze attack only affects creatures with 5HD or less. So maybe the very first bbeg, but at mid to high levels, even the minions are going to be immune to this.

She's at a point were she gets cure light wounds at will, so if the party can rest, even for a few minutes, there's a good chance that the party can be healed up quickly.

*nod* I notice that, but it seemed little problem, at least on paper. I mean, our party currently does the same thing with wands anyways, so really it'd just save the party some money on wands.

Anyway, short answer, I think the Ghaele could steel the thunder from some of the other players.

I was afraid of this. I love the idea of my pally getting a Celestial for a cohort, but stealing the thunder from the other players is the last thing I want. Thanks for the insight!

 

[SolitonMan]

I played a ghaele that started at level 6 using the Savage Species progression rules in a homebrew campaign a friend ran for a few weeks over the summer, and I have to say that every objection raised to the race as a PC or cohort is accurate. Along with the incorporeality and incredible fly speed, I took Flyby Attack as a feat which allowed me to use the cover rules to prevent my character from being attacked even when we finally did face opponents wielding ghost touch weapons. The ability to use Cure Light Wounds at will was very useful to the party, although even though this was a spell-like ability, the range of touch meant the ghaele had to assume corporeal form to use the power (at least, that's what our DM ruled, and I didn't disagree). I advanced my ghaele character to 12th level by the time our DM finished his run at the end of the summer, and it was easily the most powerful of the characters in the party, although all were 12th level at that point. I enjoyed playing the character (who dislikes power in D&D? ) but I agree that it's a tough creature to have around for the DM...so many ways to ruin plans...

BTW, the gaze for the ghaele does max out at 5HD evil creatures for the kill effect, but the fear effect is something all non-good creatures are subject to regardless of HD (if I'm reading the Savage Species entry correctly...there are some discrepancies between that reference and the stats in the ghaele entry in the SRD).