How would you classify "Good by any means neccessary"

[lukelightning]

I'd say mutilating a living being by removing its poison glands just because it offends your personal idea of right and wrong is pretty dumb.

 

[Jim Hague]

Going with the Operative example - Lawful Evil. I might go with the LN w/ evil tendencies if I was feeling particularly lenient.

"I don't kill women and children!"
"But I do...so there can be a world without sin...I'm not going to live there, there's no place for me."

As an aside - I think one of the big disconnects with alignment threads is something on a cosmological level - for all intents and purposes, we as human beings live in a morally neutral universe, where 'good' and 'evil' are relative things, leaving aside philosophies or religion.

But in an alignment-based D&D universe, Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic, Good and Evil are absolutes, solidly-defined concepts. I'll leave whether that's 'realistic' or not for some other debate, but it can be a tough thing to wrap your head around, I think.

 

[Klaus]

I'd say mutilating a living being by removing its poison glands just because it offends your personal idea of right and wrong is pretty dumb.

No. Extracting the poison glands of a beast you intend to use in combat, as to keep with your personal code of honor makes sense.

Clipping a dog's ears so they stand upright because it offends one's aesthetic sense is dumb.

 

[Nifft]

So said "morally-ambiguous" paladins capture the villain's mother/girlfriend/children and torture them into revealing the villain's secret hide out, with the full blessing of their church and god.

Those ain't Paladins. They may have the blessing of their church, but if their god condones it, I suspect the god isn't qualified to sponsor Paladins.

This isn't "good by any means", this is "evil with a fun back-story".

It might be cool to play, but it's not good.

Cheers, -- N

 

[WayneLigon]

THis is why I like the lawful evil alignment for PC's. You can behave like a real person, and not like a bizarre idealized person who would never succeed at anything.

Yes, because all real people use torture and questionable means to find out what they need to know.

Good does not equate to Stupid. Good people succeed at things just as much as neutral or evil people do - I'd go so far as to say that they succeed more than neutral or evil people do. Good people can use force to find out what they need to know if needed; a beating does not equal torture on that scale. They can also use trickery, guile and deceit.

 

[Kurotowa]

Even in the (highly contrived) sort of situation suggested by Seeten, a Good character has options.

1. Social Skills: This is what police in our world do. Use Bluff to trick the prisoner into confessing. Use Diplomacy to show them the error of their ways. Use Intimidate to cow them into cooperating. Per the BoVD, torture is just a circumstance bonus to Intimidate. If you really need it there are plenty of ways to boost your skill check that aren't evil.

2. Mind Control: I can't even list all magical options here. Charm Person, Hypnotism, Suggestion, Dominate Person, Detect Thoughts, Elixer of Truth. Just work a little magic mojo and get what you need instantly and painlessly. Used with restraint and respect none of these spells or items is evil.

3. Other: How much do you really need that guy's information? Search his house, find an alchemist to analyse a sample of the poison, use divination spells to buy a clue, consult the local herbalist about the symptoms. They take a little more effort, sure, but what defines Good besides the strength to not take the easy path?

 

[I'm A Banana]

THis is why I like the lawful evil alignment for PC's. You can behave like a real person, and not like a bizarre idealized person who would never succeed at anything.

"Tell us what you poisoned the people with so we can make an antidote."

"No."

"Please??"

Lawful Evil version.

"Tell us what you poisoned the people with so we can make an antidote Or I will rip out your entrails and feed them to you while you still live."

"Um...no."

*Begin slicing* "Ok, ok, it was sage, garlic, and thyme! STOP! STOP! NOOOOOOOOO!"

"Lets go save the village. Leave this sack here for when we return."

The common version of "Lets find out the info" I hear LG proponents espousing is comical. It reminds me of Space Balls.

Eh...that's not even that evil. Or that Lawful.

It's not something a Good character would really do, but it's not delighting in the torture for pure torture's sake, so it's more Neutral...e.g.: what most people are. Most people would probably torture someone else if it meant saving some of their own (see events like the Inquisition, or the recent debates over United States torture practices), it's not entirely without merit. Of course, some sort of wicked sadist (an Evil character) would want to torture for the power it gave them. Even if the victim had no information, they may torture, just to delight in torture. They'd research the topic, develop methods for extending the life, new and "markless" ways to induce suffering, simply revel in the moment that a being betrays what it loves and trusts for the man with the winch at the rack, just out of selfishness and desperation. They would delight in making their lessers suffer -- information might just be an excuse.

The Evil character probably wouldn't just torture for information....he'd torture until the target was unconcious, then heal his wounds and torture him again. If the victim had no more information, the Evil being may insist that they do, anyway: "YOU DO KNOW THE LOCATION OF THE MCGUFFIN! CONFESS!"

Lawful creatures would only torture when that is their appointed duty...the lawful evil types would seek out ways to be appointed torturers or information gatherers within the military structure so they could enjoy their jobs.

Nah, the situation above that you describe is something any Neutral character is capable of. You don't have to be Evil to do Evil (or Good to do Good) after all, unless you make a habit of it.

 

[Kristivas]

Good by evil means isn't really good in D&D, just as evil through good means isn't really evil. There's a grey area, though, and it's significant.

I agree with "good by any means isn't really good in D&D", but I disagree that "evil through good means isn't really evil".

It's a double standard, yes. It's unfair. However, you can use good to commit evil.

 

[Harmon]

"By any means necassary" to me is evil. Evil is without a doubt not something you want to build goodness upon, because the goodness will be a lie.

Having said that- there are means outside of the good that I know need to be used. Torturing someone to death is evil, torturing them for information is evil, even if its to save the goodness of something or someone(s).

An example comes to mind-
You know the big bad has poisoned a well in a hamlet, a hundred people are going to die. You capture the bad guy, and start questioning him, but he just laughs. The Paladin knows that the rogue will set into the torture arena as soon as he turns his back to get the antidot. The moral delima is on the Paladin, he steps away and lets an evil act occur to save the town or allows evil to succeed in the deaths of a hundred people.

The bad guy is going to the local lord for justice as far as the end is for him, but to torture or not?

In my mind the big bad should be gagged and skinned alive, when he has had enough take the gag off and ask him if he wants me to stop. If the answer is yes, he will tell me the antidot, if not then I leave the gag off and he can talk.

I want to be a hero, its my desire to be a good and honorable person, but I know that evil must be done to save good, and I know that, that evil will corrupt and tant the goodness.

So the paladin- is screwed. He must search every avenue, every little clue must be followed to its end, and if he fails he must let the villian laugh right up to the lord's justice. If he lets the rogue have her time with the villian (torture him) then the Paladin will only lose face in the eyes of his faith.

My view here will undoubtably get some flames going, its not my intent, but these threads always get people's panties twisted. Lets try to avoid that. I am only stating my view, and my call as a GM and as a Player.

Peace all.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

The torture is what does it. Without the torture, they're on pretty solidly Good ground, but the moment they delve into torture, they compromise the whole "protect the innocent" schtick. Torture is an Evil Thing, placing the torturer's goals above the integrity, safety, and quality of life of those tortured, no matter what means are used, no matter how noble the end goal. If torturing one person saves one million, the torture is still evil. Even if the torture is something like water torture, or sleep deprivation, or ritual humiliation (e.g.: more mental in nature than physical), you are removing the other person's humanity, their free choice, to serve your own ends. Even if they're evil themselves, even if who you're torturing would torture others to get to you, even if they kick puppies and shoot babies and seduce your daughters and give blood sacrifice to their wicked gods of tyranny and slaughter. Selfish, cruel, and evil.

I'd say NOT torturing two people and letting millions die because of it is pretty fricking evil.