How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress? (Volume II)

[mmadsen]

If the Game Master is very rigic in controlling every little thing that the players can do and affect, then really, what does the Game Master need the players for? The Game Master is then really writing a novel, and the players are simply a dramatic distraction, wouldn't it seem?

I get the feeling many Game Masters really would rather be writing a novel; they just need the built-in audience provided by their gaming group.

I must say, that my players love having this kind of power, this kind of awesome ability to affect history, and the destiny of peoples and nations. Try it! Who needs a Vorpal Sword?

You make a really good point. Unfortunately, it's not nearly as easy to fit a kingdom and armies into your game as it is to fit a magic sword and bigger, tougher monsters.

D&D needs some good Birthright-esque rules for kingdoms and armies. In particular, it needs a good way to fit heroes and their enemies into dramatic battles between larger armies.

It is both vivid images, and clever plans!

Take a vivid image (Rain of Fire) and follow its consequences. What does this do to our grand land war? Can we no longer concentrate our forces? Or do we concentrate them and protect them with some magical counter? Or is there a mundane counter? Or do both forces keep their forces spread out, then time a grand concentration in one big break-through attack?

Or take a vivid image (thousands upon thousand of quasi-Roman legionaries marching on the mountain-top citadel of the vampire lord) and figure out what could logically lead to it, and shape your game that way.

 

[CRG]

I've missed alot it seems

Go away for a bit and the old thread is gone baby gone! At least this one is here now to keep the dream alive...

To recap (inside the recap)....

(1) Their specialists specialize in destroying ours - we've got undead / demons / etc. and they've got clerics, paladins, etc. As such, I'm still in favor of focusing on non-undead-means of boosting our capabilities. Animals, vermin, constructs, etc. These are all things against which their mighty-special magics aren't necessarily all that great.

(2) The army standards...jeebus christmas...there aren't enough Talismans of Pure Evil to get rid of them all. Let's leave those for another article.

(3) We're defending ... they are attacking ... granted their defences at home are formidable, but really I have to think we can make them suffer while they attack. Sure, they may have it in for us, but we can summon 10 red dragons to go raze some of their cities...maybe not the biggest ones but enough to do some damage.

(4) And why the heck are we defending here? Why don't we guard the heck out of the fortress but set up some 2 way for-use-by-evil-only gates. Keep the bulk of our forces NOT IN THE FORTRESS.

(5) Back on the undead bit thing - why are we undead heavy? I'd still like to see our big guy (maybe our biggest guy) be some sort of druid / elemental / environmental archon. If they want to fight on our turf, lets make sure it is OUR TURF. Maybe we can even get it to fight for us...

SHARK: If we say that we're going to expend some amount of resources attacking supplies and teleport-raiding and razing in the Vallorean home-land, what effects will that have on the Vallorean army? Can we count on it to in any way, shape or form change the nature of their attack? Number of attackers?

 

[Zenon]

Re: I've missed alot it seems

(2) The army standards...jeebus christmas...there aren't enough Talismans of Pure Evil to get rid of them all. Let's leave those for another article.

Yup. Thirty five of them - that's 35 - of those "mightier-that-anything-in-the-DMG" artifacts bearing down on us.

jeebus christmas indeed.

SHARK: If we say that we're going to expend some amount of resources attacking supplies and teleport-raiding and razing in the Vallorean home-land, what effects will that have on the Vallorean army? Can we count on it to in any way, shape or form change the nature of their attack? Number of attackers?

From as near as SHARKs descriptions, these guys would put their heads into a threshing machine without flinching. Somehow I don't think razing their homeland will even make them blink. They're like some sort of anti-evil automations ("And he absolutely will not stop! Ever! Until you are dead!").

I've been thinking though, can we blow up the fortress? Sucker them in, let them take it and then with a force of summoned creatures like Fire Elementals and Magmins(sp?) can we turn it into a volcano? Just a random though, anybody have an idea of feasibilty or how they might detect or counter it?

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

MMADSEN: Hmmm...indeed! Vorpal swords and bigger monsters are probably easier to include in a campaign than kingdoms and armies. I agree--but I think developing armies, kingdoms, and so on, allows for the inclusion of a different scope for reward, victory, and defeat. You see what I'm getting at?

Make the players broaden their view from themselves and how much gold they have. If the players have an army to feed, train, heal, and equip, it doesn't really matter if you dump a treasure of 20,000,000 GP on them, now does it? What particular magic armor they may or may not have isn't really relevant when they have to worry if the 5th Legion is coming along well in their training or not, and if they will be ready to assault the evil Dragon fortress in the spring, heh? Or, in addition, if Alpha Company's new commander is racist against Ogres or not, and how well his command style is working with the new recruits from the province of Harrgathan. These types of considerations, and their successful resolutions, will be far more meaningful and important than if they have a new suit of +4 Plate Armor, or a +7 Vorpal sword, you know? In addition, even with the idea of using bigger and tougher monsters, that aside, they may be far more worried about the rumours of the "Black Wyvern" Regiment of elite Hobgoblins, led by the famous commander, Zhinnagharn, than what a powerful, sorcerous Beholder is doing, you know? What do you think my friend?

CRG wrote:
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"SHARK: If we say that we're going to expend some amount of resources attacking supplies and teleport-raiding and razing in the Vallorean home-land, what effects will that have on the Vallorean army? Can we count on it to in any way, shape or form change the nature of their attack? Number of attackers?"
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End Quote.

Well, the Vallorean Empire is enormous, and has a population of over 200,000,000 people. They have an enormous military machine, that is gearing up to integrate 5% of the population into the military, in addition to recruiting large foreign mercenary units, as well as inducting foreign immigrants at an increased level. In short, while damage could indeed be done--it would make the Valloreans bleed and suffer--the party, and the Vallorean Emperor, are likely to guess that such an attack is diversionary. The Vallorean Emperor has been known to then proceed to order additional armies to the attack area, so as to "press home the attack against a desperate, weary enemy." Thus, if a major assault against the Vallorean homeland is made, the Vallorean High Command may bring in an additional 50-200,000 troops to make the enemy pay. You might laugh, but the Vallorean Emperor is just such a personality. He might, in a fit of rage, order armies from other theaters to give up additional troops, so that they can be shipped to the attack area, because he has decided to fully exterminate every living creature in the area or something, in order to make the evil land pay for their arrogance and wickedness in attacking the pure. righteous, Vallorean Homeland. After all, the last time Galleran invaded Vallorea, the Emperor responded by invading Galleran with 150 Imperial Vallorean Legions!

So, by all means, attack the homeland! Some of the players will squirm, while others will appeal to the emperor for even more armies! It's a strategic gamble, I say, as far as what can be gained from it. It might be worthy though just as a bloody strike to bring death and terror! I doubt if it would be likely to seriously affect the armies facing your own lines, though. How's that?




Zenon wrote:
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Quote:

"From as near as SHARKs descriptions, these guys would put their heads into a threshing machine without flinching. Somehow I don't think razing their homeland will even make them blink."
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End Quote.

Zenon! You made me choke on my soda! Great visuals! Threshers indeed! Right on target friend, right on target! Many Vallorean Legionnaires would likely pray that the people being slaughtered back home be welcomed into the afterlife with joy, and that their sacrifice is not in vain...therefore they must speed up the attack, and exterminate the enemy in front of them all the faster, except now with even more ruthlessness! For every good, holy, righteous Vallorean killed by the wicked enemy, a price of 10 or 20 of the enemy shall be extracted...the Romans slaughtered half of the population of Carthage, enslaved the other half, and destroyed Carthage to the very ground, salting and tilling the very soil to make it a savage wasteland, where no living creature could live...such is the fate of any city in Galleran that may resist too ferociously! The Lord-General may decide to have 20 or 30 thousand Galleran humans or Hobgoblins, or Beastmen, crucified along the roads leading to and from the besieged city...The Vallorean soldiers could be expected to become even more grim, ferocious, determined, and ruthless.

Very funny Zenon! I was laughing so hard at the visual! Really great my friend! I loved that!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Sarellion]

The best solution would be to assassinate the emperor and his direct descendants. This madman is one of the most driving forces and we don´t need another like him on the throne. It is essential that one or some of the most powerful families of the empire become suspect. Perhaps they are the family with the most probable heir to the empire. Try to incite a war of succession between them and other families or army leaders of the other legions. Inspire the legion commanders to seize the throne. Send some dream spells where the gods tell the characters that they must save the Vallorean Empire.
The vampire kingdom can consolidate his forces. Perhaps they can prolong the throne wars by supporting some of the parties discreetly.

It sounds like that the Vallorean Empire has some more enemies other than the Gallerans. Arrange a meeting secretly and gather them to your side. If the Valloreans are nearly finished destroying themseves and unifying under a new ruler, attack in force and split this kingdom of crazy holy righteous people up between you and your allies.

@SHARK

How much time do we have until the new legions are ready? Are there enough standards for all the legions?
Are there any other enemies?
How big are the Galleran forces that they dare to assault this behemoth?
Why are the Valloreans still considered lawful good? They don´t sound better than their enemy?
Could this assassination be done? There must be spies and other people in the cities of the Valloreans.

 

[mmadsen]

Vorpal swords and bigger monsters are probably easier to include in a campaign than kingdoms and armies. I agree--but I think developing armies, kingdoms, and so on, allows for the inclusion of a different scope for reward, victory, and defeat. You see what I'm getting at?

Absolutely. What the game needs is a set of nice guidelines for armies, kingdoms, etc. We have some well-established guidelines for magical treasure, monster-toughness, etc. The older Basic/Expert rules had guidelines for strongholds, gaining a noble title, etc.

If the players have an army to feed, train, heal, and equip, it doesn't really matter if you dump a treasure of 20,000,000 GP on them, now does it?

This would be more true if high-level characters couldn't literally take on an army and win.

...they may be far more worried about the rumours of the "Black Wyvern" Regiment of elite Hobgoblins, led by the famous commander, Zhinnagharn, than what a powerful, sorcerous Beholder is doing, you know?

Love it.

 

[mmadsen]

Re: I've missed alot it seems

Their specialists specialize in destroying ours - we've got undead / demons / etc. and they've got clerics, paladins, etc. As such, I'm still in favor of focusing on non-undead-means of boosting our capabilities. Animals, vermin, constructs, etc. These are all things against which their mighty-special magics aren't necessarily all that great.

Our Vampires can summon rats, wolves, and bats. Any suggestions on how to use them against a Vallorean camp? Since the Valloreans are used to Vampire attacks, what countermeasures might they have in place against Vampire-summoned animals?

The army standards...jeebus christmas...

Well said.

We're defending ... they are attacking ... granted their defences at home are formidable, but really I have to think we can make them suffer while they attack.

Agreed.

Keep the bulk of our forces NOT IN THE FORTRESS.

I guess I don't see the obvious benefit. Are we afraid of getting magically nuked?

 

[sword-dancer]

Hello SHARK

Greetings!

SHARK

Zenon! You made me choke on my soda! Great visuals! Threshers indeed! Right on target friend, right on target! Many Vallorean Legionnaires would likely pray that the people being slaughtered back home be welcomed into the afterlife with joy, and that their sacrifice is not in vain...therefore they must speed up the attack, and exterminate the enemy in front of them all the faster, except now with even more ruthlessness!

This is the most reasonable reaction since the attack force is to far from Valnorrea, and so the attack would be made with utter ruthless determination, equal to cost, the soldiers know that their families are in dire danger and their best possibilitie is to eradicate their base.
I give you a few examples from our history.
Battle of England, the royal home command fought with the knowledge they are the only who stops Hitler from invading England.
Add the usually idiotics of the Gröfaz and Göring, Operation Blitz, Attack of London. They hold out and "Never own so many so few"

End of WWII German submarines had through Air Attacks to many losses and so Dönitz retreat them.
Short time later the losses of the civilians through the air bombardements go up, the planes who had searched the oceans are added to the bomber fleets, without hesitation the submarines returned to their old operation theaters.
Fully accepting their risks.

The gothic war italy after 18 years of war the ostgoths under their last hero king teja, attacked the bycantean army, after eight hours of restless fighting, teja was killed through an throwing spear the ostgoths fight till the night and send the next morning Narses a message.
Free Passage or they would fight to the last man.
Narses choose free passage.

the Romans slaughtered half of the population of Carthage, enslaved the other half, and destroyed Carthage to the very ground, salting and tilling the very soil to make it a savage wasteland, where no living creature could live...

Nobody had called the romans good and honorable.
Tyrannical and greed driven fits more.

Why are the Valloreans still considered lawful good? They don´t sound better than their enemy?
.

That is a good question!
A nation who would call Simon de Monforth a welcomer ally.

The best solution would be to assassinate the emperor and his direct descendants. This madman is one of the most driving forces and we don´t need another like him on the throne.

What they definitely don`t need is an Martyr Empereor like King Louis the saint.
OTOH the empereor and his family will be wellprotected, so the chances of success are not worth the effort.
BTW isn`t Hal SHARKS Paladin the heir of the empire?
Under such circumstances i wouldn`t like to be one of G s commanders for all crowns of the world.

It is essential that one or some of the most powerful families of the empire become suspect. Perhaps they are the family with the most probable heir to the empire.

To easily counterproofed through magic.

Try to incite a war of succession between them and other families or army leaders of the other legions. Inspire the legion commanders to seize the throne

In a time of crisis nations tend to unite, and mybe after having such dreams the army commanders would search help by clerics and scholars, or arrange meetings with each other.
And if a few speak of such dreams, 2 things will happen
1 they will see the trick and act accordingly
2 they will work to gether.

 

[Sarellion]

@sword dancer

After the last post I thought that the Valloreans are vastly superior to the Gallerans. If the emperor could be killed and some other family would seize the throne with later evidence indicating that they have killed him. It should look like that they tried to frame the Gallerans and used the opportunity. In this way the emperor would not become a martyr king. There should be confusion how and why the emperor was killed.

One of the characters is the heir of the empire? Hm, even looks better if he survives he is in the field with his armies, who can´t leave the field but probably the other armies would unite behind him.

But you are right divination magic would solve the murder quite easily. Ask the gods, they tell you via Commune or so.

 

[Zenon]

Very funny Zenon! I was laughing so hard at the visual! Really great my friend! I loved that!

(takes a small bow)

I was being serious, and your response in reply to it should help clear this up for any newcomers to the thread.

The Valloreans are dedicated and determined.

Their morale is sky high and almost impossible to break. If their homeland were to totally fall, this 350,000 man army would continue to the heart of our dark empire to rip it's guts out, every man volunteering to stay and continue the fight.

If I was a bad guy (and since I'm viewing their side here) I'd be the terrified one.

We need one of two things (both of which are near impossible):

1 - Break the army. Not just give them some losses, but shatter them. We've had some really good posts on tactics so far...

2 - Win the war (yeah, I know, hard to do). This would be the biggest blow to the Valloreans that I could think of.

Can we focus on any faults of the Valloreans and use them to our advantage? One I can think of is their pride (and you know what they say about pride, it goes before the fall). Another is their zealousness. Can we get them to over-extend? Make them "see" what we want them to believe and they will because they expect it?