How would you do 3.5e in 160 pages?

[Ry]

RE synegry bonuses provide a paragraph that says somehting like-
five or more ranks in a skill provide a +2 synergy bonus to resolving a related skill. some examples include: Sense Motive provieds a synergy bonus to Diplomacy checks and Escape Artist provides a synergy bonus to Use Rope checks to bind someone.

Seeing how bloated this text is, I think there's a long way we can go without cutting any actual rules out. In theory, you would need that info at the table to play 3.5e and not ignore any rules. I've got a table that summarizes just like Kem above, and we can go from there.

To anybody who's working on this: Everybody's got different ideas on what's best, including me, so try to keep separate sections into separate files. That way when we're all starting to drift a bit we can look at which person's version of each section is best and mix and match.

 

[JDJblatherings]

Seeing how bloated this text is, I think there's a long way we can go without cutting any actual rules out. In theory, you would need that info at the table to play 3.5e and not ignore any rules. I've got a table that summarizes just like Kem above, and we can go from there.

To anybody who's working on this: Everybody's got different ideas on what's best, including me, so try to keep separate sections into separate files. That way when we're all starting to drift a bit we can look at which person's version of each section is best and mix and match.

Just pointing out it is possible to not change the rules (didn't change any in my example) and write things in a shorter format.

 

[Ry]

Right, but then the book is a reference for running 3.5e without synergy bonuses, or with synergy bonuses you make up, or bring a PHB to be able to look up. I'm just saying that's a little bit off course.

As to the text:

Trying Again
In general, you can try a skill check again if you fail, and you can keep trying indefinitely. Some skills, however, have consequences of failure that must be taken into account. A few skills are virtually useless once a check has failed on an attempt to accomplish a particular task. For most skills, when a character has succeeded once at a given task, additional successes are meaningless.

Trying Again
In general, you can keep trying a skill check indefinitely. A few skills are virtually useless once a check has failed. Unless noted otherwise, the skill can be retried without any penalty other than the additional time required.

 

[Remathilis]

160 is VERY arbitrary, the Rules Cyclopedia (OD&D 1992) is 304 pages and carries the game from levels 1-36 with 9th level spells, monsters, dominion rules, a brief campaign setting, conversion guide to 2e, skills and weapon mastery, treasure, and its own Unearthed Arcana optional rules.

Go to 300 pages and you could easily make 3.5 fit, using many of the cuts already discussed.

 

[Grimstaff]

160 is VERY arbitrary, the Rules Cyclopedia (OD&D 1992) is 304 pages and carries the game from levels 1-36 with 9th level spells, monsters, dominion rules, a brief campaign setting, conversion guide to 2e, skills and weapon mastery, treasure, and its own Unearthed Arcana optional rules.

Go to 300 pages and you could easily make 3.5 fit, using many of the cuts already discussed.

No offense, but you're missing the point of the exercise, read the first couple of posts over.

 

[Remathilis]

Monsters

Bat . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10
Toad. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10
Rat. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8
Lizard . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6
Monkey . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6
Raven . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6
Cat . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4
Kobold. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4
Monstrous centipede, Small. . . . 1/4
Owl . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4
Pony . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4
Weasel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4
Dire rat . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3
Dog . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3
Giant fire beetle. . . . . . . . . . 1/3
Goblin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3
Hawk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3
Skeleton, human warrior . . . 1/3
Snake, Tiny viper . . . . . . . . . 1/3
Badger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2
Eagle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2
Hobgoblin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2
Locathah . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2
Merfolk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2
Monstrous centipede, Medium. . 1/2
Orc . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2
Pony, war . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2
Porpoise . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2
Snake, Small viper . . . . . . . . 1/2
Stirge . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2
Zombie, human commoner 1/2
Darkmantle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Dog, riding . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Dwarf, duergar . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Elemental, Small (any) . . . . . . 1
Elf, drow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Ghoul . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Gnoll. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Gnome, svirfneblin . . . . . . . . . 1
Grig (sprite) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Grimlock . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Homunculus. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Horse, heavy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Horse, light. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Horse, light war . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Hyena . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Lemure (devil) . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Lizardfolk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Monstrous centipede, Large . . . . 1
Monstrous scorpion, Medium .. . . . 1
Monstrous spider, Medium . . . . . . 1
Nixie (sprite). . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Octopus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Shark, Medium . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Snake, Medium viper . . . . . . . 1
Spider swarm . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Squid . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Troglodyte . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Wolf . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Bat swarm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Bear, black. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Blink dog. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Boar . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Bugbear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Cheetah. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Choker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Crocodile. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Devil, imp . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Dire badger. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Dire bat. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Dire weasel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Dretch (demon) . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Hippogriff . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Horse, heavy war . . . . . . . . . . 2
Kuo-toa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Leopard. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Lizard, monitor . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Monstrous spider, Large . . . . . 2
Quasit (demon) . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Rat swarm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Sahuagin. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Satyr . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Snake, constrictor . . . . . . . . . . 2
Snake, Large viper. . . . . . . . . . 2
Wererat (lycanthrope) . . . . . . . 2
Wolverine . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Worg . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Allip . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Ankheg . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Assassin vine . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Centaur . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Cockatrice . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Dire ape . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Dire wolf . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Doppelganger . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Dryad . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Eagle, giant . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Elemental, Medium (any) . . . . 3
Gelatinous cube (ooze) . . . . . 3
Ghast . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Grick . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Hell hound . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Lion. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Locust swarm . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Monstrous scorpion, Large. . . 3
Ogre . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Owl, giant . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Pegasus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Phantom fungus . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Rust monster . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Salamander, flamebrother. . . . 3
Shadow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Unicorn. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Violet fungus. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Werewolf (lycanthrope). . . . . . 3
Wight . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Yuan-ti, pureblood . . . . . . . . . 3
Barghest . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Bear, brown. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Bear, polar. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Carrion crawler . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Crocodile, giant. . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Dire boar. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Dire wolverine. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Displacer beast . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Gargoyle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Gray ooze . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Griffon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Harpy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Hydra, five-headed . . . . . . . . . 4
Mimic . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Minotaur. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Otyugh . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Owlbear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Pixie (sprite) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Sea hag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Shark, Huge . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Swarm, Centipede. . . . . . . . . . 4
Tiger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Wereboar (lycanthrope) . . . . . 4
Basilisk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Bearded devil (barbazu) . . . . . 5
Cloaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Dire lion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Djinni (genie) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Elemental, Large (any) . . . . . . 5
Gibbering mouther . . . . . . . . . 5
Green hag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Hydra, six-headed . . . . . . . . . . 5
Manticore . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Mummy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Nightmare . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Ochre jelly (ooze) . . . . . . . . . . 5
Phase spider . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Shadow mastiff . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Pixie (sprite) . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Troll. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Winter wolf . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Wraith . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Yuan-ti, halfblood . . . . . . . . . . 5
Annis (hag). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
Chain devil (kyton) . . . . . . . . . 6
Demon, babau . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
Ettin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
Girallon. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
Hydra, seven-headed . . . . . . . 6
Lamia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
Salamander, average . . . . . . . . 6
Shambling mound . . . . . . . . . 6
Will-o’-wisp . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
Wyvern . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
Aboleth . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Black pudding (ooze) . . . . . . . 7
Chaos beast . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Chimera . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Chuul . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Criosphinx. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Dire bear. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Drider . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Elemental, Huge (any) . . . . . . 7
Elephant . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Ghost, 5th-level human fighter . . . 7
Giant, hill . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Golem, flesh . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Hellcat (devil) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Hydra, eight-headed . . . . . . . . 7
Invisible stalker . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Medusa. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Naga, water. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Nymph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Spectre . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Succubus (demon) . . . . . . . . . 7
Umber hulk. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Vampire, 5th-level human fighter . 7
Yuan-ti, abomination. . . . . . . . 7
Bodak . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Dire tiger. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Djinni noble (genie) . . . . . . . . 8
Efreeti (genie) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Erinyes (devil) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Giant, stone . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Gorgon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Gray render. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Gynosphinx . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Hellwasp swarm . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Hydra, nine-headed . . . . . . . . 8
Lammasu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Mind flayer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Mohrg. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Naga, dark . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Octopus, giant . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Ogre mage . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Shield guardian. . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Shadow, greater . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Treant . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Androsphinx . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
Bone devil (osyluth) . . . . . . . . 9
Dire shark . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
Elemental, greater (any) . . . . . 9
Giant, frost . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
Hydra, ten-headed . . . . . . . . . 9
Naga, spirit . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
Night hag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
Roc . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
Squid, giant. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
Vrock (demon) . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
Yrthak . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
Bebilith (demon). . . . . . . . . . 10
Giant, fire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
Hydra, eleven-headed . . . . . . 10
Naga, guardian . . . . . . . . . . . 10
Rakshasa. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
Salamander, noble . . . . . . . . 10
Barbed devil (hamatula) . . . . 11
Devourer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
Elemental, elder (any). . . . . . 11
Giant, cloud . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
Golem, stone . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
Hezrou (demon). . . . . . . . . . 11
Hydra, twelve-headed . . . . . . 11
Retriever (demon). . . . . . . . . 11
Frost worm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
Kraken. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
Purple worm . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
Roper . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
Beholder . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
Glabrezu (demon) . . . . . . . . 13
Giant, storm . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
Golem, iron. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
Ice devil (gelugon) . . . . . . . . 13
Lich, 11th-level human wizard. . 13
Astral deva (angel) . . . . . . . . 14
Nalfeshnee (demon). . . . . . . 14
Horned devil (cornugon) . . . 16
Planetar (angel) . . . . . . . . . . 16
Marilith (demon) . . . . . . . . . 17
Balor (demon) . . . . . . . . . . . 20
Pit fiend (devil) . . . . . . . . . . . 20

Dragons would come in all ten colors, but only three ages: Young, Adult, and Old.
Age Wh Bla Bra Gr Blu Co Bro Re Si Go
Young 4 5 6 5 6 7 7 7 7 9
Adult 10 11 12 13 14 14 15 15 15 16
Old 15 16 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21

I'm sure someone could come by and re-cut the list again...

 

[Ry]

160 is VERY arbitrary, the Rules Cyclopedia (OD&D 1992) is 304 pages and carries the game from levels 1-36 with 9th level spells, monsters, dominion rules, a brief campaign setting, conversion guide to 2e, skills and weapon mastery, treasure, and its own Unearthed Arcana optional rules.

Go to 300 pages and you could easily make 3.5 fit, using many of the cuts already discussed.

Although I'm not trying to just thumb my nose at WotC's Rules Compendium, I think 160 is a good mark to shoot for. If it means we end up with say, 100 pages that do everything except spells, magic items, and monsters, and then can't agree on the rest, that's still a big accomplishment. A duotang with 50 pieces of paper in it (printed front and back) is a heck of a lot lighter than a PHB and DMG.

 

[Ry]

OK, well, just fixing wording and removing duplication, and doing nothing to the formatting, I've got the skills from the SRD down to 24 pages from 30. I'm sure there's a lot more that can be done with it but I don't see it. If anyone wants to take a fresh crack at it feel free.

One thing that's weird is that the rule that you can't take 10 or 20 on a Caster Level check only appears in the Skills chapter. You'd think it would get into magic or something.

Edit: I can do better. I'll get back to this tomorrow.

 

[jmucchiello]

It could be even more compact by fixing the tables.

Fixing? You can eliminate the first 4 columns by just have a single line: BAB: Good, Fort: Good, Ref: Bad, Will: Bad.

My favorite "just eliminate it" lines in the SRD are in some of the prestige classes:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Arcane tricksters gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

It just doesn't need to be there.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I would use fewer words.