How would you keep 3.5 in print? (Forked Thread: WotC to Revise D&D 4th Edition GSL)

[Treebore]

You might be right if I had, in fact, been talking about Pathfinder. However, since I wasn't talking about Pathfinder (because I (a) understand it's purpose and (b) don't care about it at all), I'd prefer if you didn't label me complaining or ignorant when you are, in fact, ignorant of the context of my post.

Sorry. I did not read any of the thread this is forked from, so I hope you can see how I came to the conclusions I did.

So what were you referring to?

 

[The Little Raven]

Sorry. I did not read any of the thread this is forked from, so I hope you can see how I came to the conclusions I did.

I can. Accepted. Sorry for being snippy. My office is currently a war zone and I'm trying to stay sane until I can get out of this company.

So what were you referring to?

Specifically, the WoW RPG. 400 pages, with maybe 100 of them being actual original content, with the other 300 being drawn straight from the SRD, verbatim. That was the last time I purchased a 3rd party product, since it was a recognizable brand name (I love Warcraft) and a company whose material I normally like (White Wolf), so when I was once bitten, I became thrice shy because of it.

I fully understand what Paizo is doing, and have an entirely different view and opinion of it, because of the circumstances. And they are making enough changes that even if I directed the reprinting opinion towards them, I'm not sure it would be applicable.

 

[Darrin Drader]

Specifically, the WoW RPG. 400 pages, with maybe 100 of them being actual original content, with the other 300 being drawn straight from the SRD, verbatim. That was the last time I purchased a 3rd party product, since it was a recognizable brand name (I love Warcraft) and a company whose material I normally like (White Wolf), so when I was once bitten, I became thrice shy because of it.

I gave the WoW RPG a miss for exactly that reason. With 3PP, it really helps to know what they're trying to do with the book and then read a review or two before spending the cash. Some are exceptional, like Tome of Horrors 1 - 3, The Book of Fiends, Ptolus, True20 (which is mostly SRD), Darwin's World, the Freeport books, and of course Pathfinder. Other stuff seems like it needs to go back for more conceptualizing before they put it out there, and I'm not naming the products that I own that fall into this category.

 

[Treebore]

I gave the WoW RPG a miss for exactly that reason. With 3PP, it really helps to know what they're trying to do with the book and then read a review or two before spending the cash. Some are exceptional, like Tome of Horrors 1 - 3, The Book of Fiends, Ptolus, True20 (which is mostly SRD), Darwin's World, the Freeport books, and of course Pathfinder. Other stuff seems like it needs to go back for more conceptualizing before they put it out there, and I'm not naming the products that I own that fall into this category.

I own the WoW RPG too. I read it more of how the "SRD fits the WoW" world rather then a verbatum copy of the SRD. Lets see, character creation, WoW races, WoW classes, WoW equipment, WoW spells, powers, feats, skills, etc...

Yep, looks exactly like I would expect a D20/3E adaptation of WOW to look. None of it looks like a copy and paste of the SRD to me. Since you said White Wolf I can only assume you have the same version done by Arthaus that I do.

Of course I wouldn't want to buy the WoW book and then have to look up the SRD on line to find out how feats, skills, bull rush, AoO, etc... works. I would much rather have that in the book I am playing from. You know, complete. Right there, in that book. I wouldn't want to have to reference the 3E PH either.

Fortunately for me I feel that is what I got. It got me to buy several of the other books too. So the WoW books work for me.


I'm also glad that Mutants and Masterminds and True 20 repeated all of that for me in the one book too.

Its also why I hope the 4E GSL rewrite will allow 3PP to publish monster stats, spells, etc... in the books they do, I don't want to have carry around multiple books. That is part of the big covenience of modules. All I need is the module, the PH, and maybe the DMG. The monsters, and new stuff are all in the module.

Then again, that is not a big issue for me anymore, I don't go to other homes for games anymore. So now its cool for me to need to refer to all 9 of my 3E monster manuals, because they are all right there next to me on my book shelf.

However, if I was still running games at other peoples homes, or the LGS, I would want as much as possible to be covered in that module, or in as few books as possible.

So I was happy with how they did WoW.

 

[Darrin Drader]

I own the WoW RPG too. I read it more of how the "SRD fits the WoW" world rather then a verbatum copy of the SRD. Lets see, character creation, WoW races, WoW classes, WoW equipment, WoW spells, powers, feats, skills, etc....

You're probably right. Since I'm not personally invested with WoW, I was less interested in their PHB and more interested in their Monster Manual. I actually picked up the Everquest monster book, then found that it was full of spells and effects that were listed only in other books and not the SRD, realized I couldn't use it, and let a friend have it.

So anyway, I'm not dissing the WoW book, I'm just saying that as a non-WoW player, I wasn't in need of that particular variant player's Handbook.

 

[Treebore]

You're probably right. Since I'm not personally invested with WoW, I was less interested in their PHB and more interested in their Monster Manual. I actually picked up the Everquest monster book, then found that it was full of spells and effects that were listed only in other books and not the SRD, realized I couldn't use it, and let a friend have it.

So anyway, I'm not dissing the WoW book, I'm just saying that as a non-WoW player, I wasn't in need of that particular variant player's Handbook.

For the record I also disagree with your statement of True20 being mostly SRD (read your previous post). I am forming my opinion on the Revised version, but True 20, at least the Revised, certainly is NOT mostly SRD either. It is about their 3 class system, building the classes with the feats, how they do spells (which is very different form the SRD), etc...

So your opinion could be accurate for the original True 20, but I seriously disagree with you based on the Revised version.

 

[Treebore]

I also want to make sure it is understood that my response about WoW also took into consideration what Little Raven said too, so that is not all solely directed at you Darrin. You were just the last to weigh in, so you got quoted.

 

[Darrin Drader]

For the record I also disagree with your statement of True20 being mostly SRD (read your previous post). I am forming my opinion on the Revised version, but True 20, at least the Revised, certainly is NOT mostly SRD either. It is about their 3 class system, building the classes with the feats, how they do spells (which is very different form the SRD), etc...

So your opinion could be accurate for the original True 20, but I seriously disagree with you based on the Revised version.

Well, I wasn't dissing True20, I actually really like it (go check out which system my scifi setting Reign of Discordia is for). I also agree with everything you said. The point I was making is that large parts of that book are derived from the SRD, which is true for most, if not all, of the alternate PHBs out there.

 

[Darrin Drader]

I also want to make sure it is understood that my response about WoW also took into consideration what Little Raven said too, so that is not all solely directed at you Darrin. You were just the last to weigh in, so you got quoted.

No problem. People seem to want to take everything I say in the worst possible way lately, so I wanted to make sure that what I meant was clear.

 

[Treebore]

Well, I wasn't dissing True20, I actually really like it (go check out which system my scifi setting Reign of Discordia is for). I also agree with everything you said. The point I was making is that large parts of that book are derived from the SRD, which is true for most, if not all, of the alternate PHBs out there.

Cool.

As I am sure your aware, we do need to be careful what we say. Someone reading this thread may have remembered you saying "True 20 (mostly SRD)" when considering True 20 in the future.

So I made my post hoping that they would remember that the Revised, at least, was not "mostly SRD".

Now they will hopefully remember that True 20 was a system we both considered worth liking, and they will buy it. And like it.

I am not saying True20 is the best system out there, but I do like how it plays, and I think it does an awesome job of helping players immerse themselves in the campaign, because of what they can do with their characters.

In my case I am referring to my experience running the Excalibur game setting for True 20. A very immersive and enjoyable experience.