D&D 5E How would you like 5e to handle combat roles.

5e combat roles

  • 1 role. Defender or Striker or Leader or Controler.

    Votes: 27 21.8%
  • Everyone is a striker plus a secondary role: Defender or Leader or Controler.

    Votes: 27 21.8%
  • Everyone can play each role but in different ways.

    Votes: 70 56.5%

Andor

First Post
Name me their classes. Was Aragorn a Fighter or Ranger? Depends which edition you play.

No. No it doesn't. Aragorn is THE iconic Ranger. He is why they had awkward spell access. "Can I model Aragorn" has always be THE test of the Ranger class. He is why the class exists.

What was Frodo?

Frodo was a commoner who prestiged classed into Elf friend.

D&D classes don't map well onto LoTR where Gandalf's no wizard.

Gandalf was a DMNPC demigod.

Modeling heroic fantasy literature has always been an explicit goal of D&D. Lord of the Rings is the 800lb gorilla in that room.

Fafhrd. Paksenarrion. Caramon Majere. Jocelyn Verreuil (sp?) from the Kushiel series.

When was Fafhrd keeping the bad guys off a squishy wizard? Paks did not exert 4e style field control and marking. Caramon was based on D&D but still was not notably better at field control than the barmaid with the frying pan. I have not read the Kushiel series.

Defender is a job, not a powerset. The thing about explicit roles is that they are an entirely gamist construction and I despise their intrusion into the simulation aspects of the game.

Classes are too, to be fair, but I think they give more than they take away.

Tell me if you can. What benefit is derived from having explict roles that cannot be achieved by simply allowing the concept of roles to inform the background system design?
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Tell me if you can. What benefit is derived from having explict roles that cannot be achieved by simply allowing the concept of roles to inform the background system design?

It lowers accidental imbalance.

Without some form of enforcement in the guidelines, the players might accidentally (or purposely) combine things that the designers did not expect to be combined or use resources the designers did not expect to use.

I am sure the designers of 3e did not expect to trivialize damage dealing when they gave everyone access, jacked up the HP, and keep control spells strong. 3e works great when the players play dumb. Or all those trading games and their banlists. And all those games with patches to here and boost things.

Explicit roles lets the designers make the game in the manners they intended and the amount of fixes are kept down. The problem is you now have to play the designers' game, not yours.

Guidelines are great. The problem arises when someone doesn't follow them. Then they no longer fit into what the game expected to see. Then the game changes.
 

Andor

First Post
Explicit roles lets the designers make the game in the manners they intended and the amount of fixes are kept down. The problem is you now have to play the designers' game, not yours.

This. Exactly this.

Speaking for myself I don't give a fart in a typhoon how balanced the game is if it's not the game I want to play.

That doesn't make you wrong if you would rather play the designers balanced game rather than your own. It doesn't even we couldn't have fun playing at the same table.

It might mean WotC can't sell both of us the same book. That's what 4e meant after all. It would not naturally occur to me that some people would dislike imbalance so intensely that they are unwilling to move into a looser game from 4e. It may be so. And if so WotC has set themselves an impossible task by trying to make One edition to unite them all. I hope not. I'd like 5e to succeed.
 

with casting times, spell failure, and risks of casting spells it is entirely possiboe to do. For me 2E was as balanced as I needed. But you could certqinly take it further, retaining the wizard's breadth of options but imposing things like harsher casting times. I much prefer an approach pike this than the narrowing of class roles you had in 4E. I want my casters to be interesting and have lot of options.

And yet I've retired a 4e wizard for overwhelming the DM with all his tricks and stunts. At third level. It just took more work than overwhelming him with a previous edition one would.

No. No it doesn't. Aragorn is THE iconic Ranger. He is why they had awkward spell access. "Can I model Aragorn" has always be THE test of the Ranger class. He is why the class exists.

Aragorn is the iconic 1e ranger right down to their ability to use crystal balls as he used the Palantir. What he is not is a twin sword waving dervish of the 2e ranger. Or even that much of a 3.0 ranger whose defining feature was two weapon fighting. The ranger has changed over the years and it's only the 1e ranger that's a good fit.

Gandalf was a DMNPC demigod.

Who used maybe half a dozen spells in the whole of LoTR. But DMPC qualifies.

Modeling heroic fantasy literature has always been an explicit goal of D&D. Lord of the Rings is the 800lb gorilla in that room.

Pre 4e it fails even at Jack Vance despite the "Vancian" casting. It fails to get the Grey Mouser at all. Ritual Caster being a 4e inovation.

When was Fafhrd keeping the bad guys off a squishy wizard?

When was he up in the face of enemies so if they took their attention off him he'd slice them open? A much better reflection of the defender. And what marking represents.

Paks did not exert 4e style field control and marking.

No. She just made sure that people dealt with her not those she was protecting. Which is what defenders do. The marks are a mechanical representation of this.

Caramon was based on D&D but still was not notably better at field control than the barmaid with the frying pan.

But he was better at getting in the way, being a meatshield, and making sure people attacked him and not his brother.

I have not read the Kushiel series.

Jocelyn was a trained bodyguard.

Defender is a job, not a powerset.

And the defender mechanics give you the tools to do the job. Rather than just standing there like a stuffed lemon as people play splat the mage.

The thing about explicit roles is that they are an entirely gamist construction and I despise their intrusion into the simulation aspects of the game.

Because getting up in someone's face is an entirely gamist construction? Because being alert of anything that's going on round you so you can punish a moment of inattention is a gamist construction?

Marking as a term isn't meant as in "with a highlighter pen". It's meant as on the football field or basketball court.

Tell me if you can. What benefit is derived from having explict roles that cannot be achieved by simply allowing the concept of roles to inform the background system design?

Given that role has no direct mechanical input, I don't understand the question. The roles are made explicit because it makes things easier for new players. Marking from a fighter is a physical reflection of what they do, crowding, and making sure that if their targets stop paying attention they are dead.

It also gives more of a reminder for the designers to stay focussed so you don't end up with the 3.X Monk (Jack of No Trades) or the 3.X Druid. Whether you need to explicitely say which role people have at the end is neither here nor there.
 

And yet I've retired a 4e wizard for overwhelming the DM with all his tricks and stunts. At third level. It just took more work than overwhelming him with a previous edition one would.

I wasn't saying you couldn't. This has everything to do with range of available spell options. It isn't about wizards being overpowered. In fact one of things I. Lke about AD&D style wizards is hiw weak they are the first several levels.
 

keterys

First Post
Recently played some older school D&D and I have to say... the old rule where disengaging from an enemy gave an attack and there was no way to 5-ft step or whatever without sacrificing your turn? Oh, and it was way easier to have chokepoints in the adventure?

Yeah, that really made fighters feel very defendery at the table, as no creature wanted to risk dying in one hit to get at the back ranks where the non-fighters had much worse AC and HP.
 

Recently played some older school D&D and I have to say... the old rule where disengaging from an enemy gave an attack and there was no way to 5-ft step or whatever without sacrificing your turn? Oh, and it was way easier to have chokepoints in the adventure?

Yeah, that really made fighters feel very defendery at the table, as no creature wanted to risk dying in one hit to get at the back ranks where the non-fighters had much worse AC and HP.
That's the other way to do it. Add things that aren't on the fighter's kit list such as solid brick corridors (doesn't work anything like so well in open ground) and prevent disengaging almost entirely. But once you open up any sort of mobility, this goes.

4e fighters are basically only a little stickier than AD&D fighters and for almost the same reasons. It's just that the game is much more mobile and flowing around them.
 

I wasn't saying you couldn't. This has everything to do with range of available spell options. It isn't about wizards being overpowered. In fact one of things I. Lke about AD&D style wizards is hiw weak they are the first several levels.
It's range of available spells that the DM did not expect that I was driving the DM mad with. That's right. The range of spells and effects a 4e wizard had. 3.X is IMO just too easy.

Also with 3.X I didn't notice a lot of variety with wizards. Swap the spellbooks over and they were almost the same. 4e on the other hand because there are fewer options can have much more variety.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
This. Exactly this.

Speaking for myself I don't give a fart in a typhoon how balanced the game is if it's not the game I want to play.

That doesn't make you wrong if you would rather play the designers balanced game rather than your own. It doesn't even we couldn't have fun playing at the same table.

It might mean WotC can't sell both of us the same book. That's what 4e meant after all. It would not naturally occur to me that some people would dislike imbalance so intensely that they are unwilling to move into a looser game from 4e. It may be so. And if so WotC has set themselves an impossible task by trying to make One edition to unite them all. I hope not. I'd like 5e to succeed.

Balance and customization are not mutually exclusive all of the time.

Just because the game has explicit roles doesn't mean a character is stuck with only 1 explicit role.

Just because the game has explicit roles doesn't mean a class that has an explicit role has access to it at the same strength as other classes.

You might make your wizard able to be a striker, defender, controller, and leader at the same time. Doesn't mean his heals will match the cleric's but his buffs might.
 

It's range of available spells that the DM did not expect that I was driving the DM mad with. That's right. The range of spells and effects a 4e wizard had. 3.X is IMO just too easy.

Also with 3.X I didn't notice a lot of variety with wizards. Swap the spellbooks over and they were almost the same. 4e on the other hand because there are fewer options can have much more variety.

Our experiences with the two sysyems are very different then
 

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