How would you model squad-level mass combat in 4e?

[the Jester]

So I'm going to run a mass-combat adventure for the party in the relatively near future. I'm going to give them a bunch of 'units,' have them decide how to divide their command up, and give them an area to defend or an offensive mission to accomplish, etc.

At present I'm thinking I'll set up each unit with a mass combat stat block; I'm going to try to run the battle using basic 4e rules tweaked for the mass combat. I've not thought this through very thoroughly yet, but a few of the features I had in mind include:

*Bloodied units are weakened (to represent the lessening of their firepower).
*Maybe use "rally surges"; commanders can trigger them somehow to heal some damage to the unit.
*Some kind of morale rules; a failed morale check does damage as the unit's resolve lessens and a few troops desert, surrender or play dead.

Like I said, I'm just beginnning to thrash this out, and would love feedback, ideas, etc. Anyone else done anything similar yet?

 

[thecasualoblivion]

So I'm going to run a mass-combat adventure for the party in the relatively near future. I'm going to give them a bunch of 'units,' have them decide how to divide their command up, and give them an area to defend or an offensive mission to accomplish, etc.

At present I'm thinking I'll set up each unit with a mass combat stat block; I'm going to try to run the battle using basic 4e rules tweaked for the mass combat. I've not thought this through very thoroughly yet, but a few of the features I had in mind include:

*Bloodied units are weakened (to represent the lessening of their firepower).
*Maybe use "rally surges"; commanders can trigger them somehow to heal some damage to the unit.
*Some kind of morale rules; a failed morale check does damage as the unit's resolve lessens and a few troops desert, surrender or play dead.

Like I said, I'm just beginnning to thrash this out, and would love feedback, ideas, etc. Anyone else done anything similar yet?

This would take a little work, but I'd recommend trying to adapt the 2nd edition D&D miniatures rules for this. 4E doesn't really handle combatants of wildly varying levels well, and the skirmish game handles this much better.

 

[the Jester]

This would take a little work, but I'd recommend trying to adapt the 2nd edition D&D miniatures rules for this. 4E doesn't really handle combatants of wildly varying levels well, and the skirmish game handles this much better.

Well, the key will be in how I design each unit. Each unit (1 miniature = 8-12 men; I'll probably give the party x squads of archers, x squads of footmen, etc.) I'm going to try to design both good guy and bad guy units 'reasonably', so that the pcs have a chance against basic enemy goblins and such, but the ogre units will be a bitch.

Like I said, I want to give 4e a crack at this. If I can't make it work I'll look at various elder-edition options- I have quite a few- and see what I can come up with.

 

[DrSkull]

I was thinking of doing something similar. Here's what I came up with.

Each unit of 20 men equals 1 figure.

Design the figure as a "Monster" using standard rules. You can give some units (containing a battle-banner, priests, great leader) the equivalent of "Healing Surges" to help his side.

For unit vs unit combat, treat as a regular D&D fight.

If PC's are all together in a unit, call that figure a "Hero" unit, make it the approximate average level of the PC's, but give it Elite or Solo strength to represent the PC"s awesomeness.

If you have time, and want to fight out the PC's individual combats in more detail, when their "figure" attacks another figure, "zoom in".
Consider the enemy figure to consist of 1 leader type, 9 soldiers, and 10 minions. Any "bloodied" figure has lost all its minions or half its minions and half its soldiers.

Give the PC's enough soldiers and minions to bring the total number of troops to 20 on their side too.


Fight the PC's vs the enemies close up, with 5 rounds in the close up, equalling 1 round in the main battle.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I might give a squad a damage output value and a soak (HP) value (derived from their individual 4e stats, of course), each sectioned into one xth of the total, where x is the number of guys in a squad (say, 10 or 20, being easy numbers to work with). Have all the attack rolls, initiative, special abilities, range, recovery, etc. work en masse. Whenever one of those designated portions of soak is gone, damage output is reduced to the same degree.

Or something like that. But I ain't a 4e guy, so sorry if it's way off. That, and I haven't thought about mass combat much at all for a while.


edit --- tacking on some stuff from Heroes of Battle might even work. . . not sure, though. Morale, f'rex.

 

[the Jester]

I might give a squad a damage output value and a soak (HP) value (derived from their individual 4e stats, of course), each sectioned into one xth of the total, where x is the number of guys in a squad... Whenever one of those designated portions of soak is gone, damage output is reduced to the same degree.

I'm super-simplifying this; when the unit is bloodied (half hp) it also becomes weakened (half damage).

 

[Aus_Snow]

I'm super-simplifying this; when the unit is bloodied (half hp) it also becomes weakened (half damage).

Heh. Just goes to show: "You can always be too careful."

I was a bit worried that the starting point I posted might be too simple.

Anyway, yeah - the simpler the better, to a point. It'll run so much better then.

 

[Stogoe]

Here's what I did when my players took their soldiers to quell the southern tribes. I started out with tiles from Settlers of Catan as the map, and worked from there. Each turn is the equivalent of one day.

HP = The number of soldiers in the unit
Starting Resources = Leader’s Healing Surges
On your turn, spend a Resource. You have a Move action and a Standard action. The Move action lets you move one hex. If you move into a hex occupied by another unit, you are both aware of each other.
Checks: When the rules call for a check, use the leader’s modifiers.

Standard Actions (illustrative, not exhaustive):
·Heal – For every 5 on your Heal check, heal 1 hp. You can’t use the Heal action if you’re engaged with an enemy.
·Forage – Make a Nature check. Depending on the terrain type, recover Resources. You can’t use the Forage action if you’re engaged with an enemy.
·Attack – You engage with the enemy, dealing 1d4 damage. You must share a hex with the target.
·Recon – Make a Stealth check. Succeed: uncover potential enemies in an adjacent hex.
·Message – Send a messenger to an ally. The messenger moves 2 squares per round. If it encounters an enemy, the sending unit takes 1d4 damage.
·Forced March – Spend an additional Resource and move an additional hex.

Other:
Engaged: If you attack an enemy or are attacked, you are engaged with that unit.
Disengage – as part of a Move action, make a save. 10+: Success; you can move freely. Failure; take 1d4 damage as you move.

An Army’s Stomach: If your unit runs out of Resources, it refuses to do anything but Forage (though it is willing to move to greener pastures). Each turn you start with 0 Resources, you lose 1d4 hp.

Damage: If your unit loses all its hp, all further damage is dealt to the unit’s maximum hp. If the unit’s max hp is reduced to zero, the unit is destroyed.

Leader Benefits:
·Ranger – The unit gathers 1 extra resource each time it uses the Forage action
·Rogue/Warlock – The unit can make a Stealth check as part of its Move action to remain undetected by enemies.
·Cleric/Warlord – The unit heals 1 hp for free at the start of each turn.
·Fighter – Attacks gain the Brutal 1 property.
·Wizard – reveal attributes of 1 adjacent square for free each turn.
·Paladin – enemy automatically fails the save to disengage.

Unit Types
Cavalry – Move 2 hexes with the move action.
Archery – Attack adjacent squares; are not engaged unless sharing a hex with the target.
[FONT=&quot]Infantry – Resist All 1.[/FONT]

 

[Asmor]

I wouldn't. At least, not in any way recognizable at 4e. Depending on circumstances, I might design a new subsystem specifically for it, but more likely I'd hand wave things. Have the area around the PCs be winning, but have other places be losing to keep things dynamic and make the PCs' actions matter (do we hold the bridge or ambush their artillerists?)

 

[the Jester]

Damage: If your unit loses all its hp, all further damage is dealt to the unit’s maximum hp. If the unit’s max hp is reduced to zero, the unit is destroyed.

Damn- this is a great idea here. If I was wearing a hat, I'd doff it to you.