D&D 5E How would you wish WOTC to do Dark Sun

[Remathilis]

]You summed it up perfectly and I do not see any problem at all with the selection except that I would make Templars Warlocks as I already posted a few times. I do not need Xanathars for DS. (Fun fact : are Beholders a thing at all for DS, do they exist there?)

Quite a few people here, many of whom are also in favor of curated lists, don't seem to agree. But that's the issue, isn't it? For the last half dozen or so pages, aside from fighter, rogue and wizard, nobody really seems to agree what else fit in Athas or how to mechanically represent that. There is little agreement if Templar is a cleric, warlock, NPC stat block, or what. Psionics is ping-ponging between reflavored magic and a whole new class. One person's acceptable class is another's non-starter. I don't think there is any other setting that has this much disagreement about what should or shouldn't be in it. (Well, maybe Greyhawk Grognards who don't believe anything added to the game after 1983 should be in it).

Look, what you do in your home game is up to you: ban everything but human champion fighters if you want. But the title of this thread asked what WotC should do, and there is no consensus on what WotC should limit beyond the canonically dead races and some obvious "cheat" spells and effects. So if WotC wants to cast the biggest net, it should make the most options available and let the DM ban to taste. It is consistent with what they've done with every other setting they did so far, including the mini settings with Greyhawk and Ravenloft in the modules.

This is they way.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I am starting to think maybe we don't need a new DS but a book about "post-apocalypse planetary romance" and this using DS as default setting.

* In my DS I would add shamanism, cult to acenstors, spirits, kami, faes or orishas. Do you really think all the wild tribes of sentient creatures are totally atheist? To survive they also need the consolation by the faith.

* The mind lords of the last sea talks about a time traveler who tried to warn about the future, and he failed, at least in great measure. What if he wasn't there were more time-travelers and anybody changed or altered the History? Or killed sorcerers become lords of the afterlife realms. How to explain it? Do you remember the Mother of the Null from Stephen King's "Revival"? (warning with the spoilers) Let's imagine Dark Sun Gray is the Null, but here the Mother eats the sinners' soul, but not destroy them. When a sinner soul has suffered too punishment, then she becomes a fae and goes to the land within the wind. Then the gray/null would be like a purgatory with a touch of insect-like zombie apoycalypse. They Gray could be an interesting planar battlefield.

* Not all the races were totally terminated, but they survived evolutionating to other type, losing the previous monster subtype, for example orcs to tarek, and gnomes to hej-kin.

* What if players want new classes (totemist shaman, warblade, crusader, shadowcaster, vestige binder) in their DS games?

 

[Haldrik]

Templars are a surprisingly problematic character concept.

• 2e Templar is a Cleric who "worships" a draconicized human Wizard, the "sorcerer-king" (analogous to a Caesar as a divine-king).

• 4e deleted Divine classes
• 4e made elemental Cleric ANY Primal class (Druid, Shaman, et al), and templar Cleric ANY Arcane class (Wizard, Warlock, et al).
• 4e made Templar a "theme" ( ≈ extra feats at level 1 character creation).

Here are the following suggestions from forumers in this thread with regard to a 5e templar.

• Templar is a Divine Cleric, such as a War domain, an Arcana domain, or a new domain, being a non-defiler (compare 2e).
• Templar is an Arcane Warlock, with a new pact with the sorcerer-king as a patron, with a license to defile (compare 4e).
• Templar is a Paladin, with sorcerer-king oath, or even the Oath of Tyranny straightforwardly, as a Divine non-defiler enforcer (compare 2e).
• Templar is an Eldritch Knight, gaining spells known from the sorcerer-king, with a license to defile (compare 4e)
• Templar is a 5e Background that can be any class, and gains a special relationship with a particular sorcerer-king (combine both 2e and 4e).

Are there other suggestions?

Deriving from D&D tradition, the Templar must be a spellcaster. 2e is a non-defiler Divine full-caster. 4e is a defiler Arcane full- or partial-caster.

For 5e, it seems the most important decision is whether the Templar is an Arcane defiler or a Divine non-defiler. But either option seems equally valid.

A secondary decision is whether this is a full-caster or any caster.

The Templar can work as a 5e Background, regardless of which classes are allowed to be prerequisites for this Background.

 

[Haldrik]

It occurs to me, for 5e.

Perhaps. The council of Wizards who are approved to carry a license to defile on behalf of a sorcerer-king, could be the SAME THING as the Templars. Thus these Templars ARE the imperial Arcanist magical bureaucracy.

Note, different cities, being the capitals of different empires, have different social customs relating to who can be a Templar. For example, one of the cities requires all Templars to be female. This opens the possibility that one city might allow any Arcane class, while an other city only allows Warlocks to be Templars.

Perhaps some cities have Arcane Templars, while other cities have Divine Templars?

 

[Haldrik]

By the way, regarding magic sources.

• Psionic is Common.
• Divine is Uncommon in rural areas but Rare in urban areas.
• Arcane is Uncommon in urban areas but Rare in rural areas.

Note, any urban Arcanists must have the special license to defile. This license is tightly controlled and regulated by a particular sorcerer-king. The Rare rural Arcanists tend to be refugees who fled the cities because of their preserver political philosophy that opposes the defiling ways of the sorcerer-king. The rural animists welcome these preserver Arcanists. However, there might also be criminal defiler Arcanists, who fled the city after failing to obtain the license, and are considered outlaws to both the rural and the urban communities.

 

[humble minion]

• Templar is a Divine Cleric, such as a War domain, an Arcana domain, or a new domain, being a non-defiler (compare 2e).
• Templar is an Arcane Warlock, with a new pact with the sorcerer-king as a patron, with a license to defile (compare 4e).
• Templar is a Paladin, with sorcerer-king oath, or even the Oath of Tyranny straightforwardly, as a Divine non-defiler enforcer (compare 2e).
• Templar is an Eldritch Knight, gaining spells known from the sorcerer-king, with a license to defile (compare 4e)
• Templar is a 5e Background that can be any class, and gains a special relationship with a particular sorcerer-king (combine both 2e and 4e).

Are there other suggestions?

Insert the 'why not have both?' GIF here?

My personal image of templars is heavily influenced by the Lynn Abbey books. In those, Hamanu (there's not much spoken about other how sorcerer-kings work) has a Templarate to enforce the law, do his will in Urik, but there's a wide range of people and skills in that templarate. Some are conventional spellcasting templars who draw on Hamanu's power (generally a bit cleric-y in their powerset, but not entirely), but also there's talented people in other classes who Hamanu can give a medallion to (or who can grow into the templarate via the ophanages or Urik) who can be part of the organisation of the Templarate, but who don't necessarily take levels in the Templar class. There's psionicist, fighter, 'deadheart' (possibly necromancer, and/or defiler?) and even druid individuals who act as part of the templarate - generally by being given a medallion of office (a medallion being a minor magic item that allows in extremis communication with the sorcerer-king).

From a purely game-mechanical point of view, I'd be inclined to open a lot of options here. 'Templar' might be a background, and in addition, you might also have Templar clerics who gain spells from the sorcerer-kings and/or warlocks likewise. So someone who grew up in a Templar orphanage but became a headkicker rather than a spellcaster, then maybe you're a Templar background fighter, while if you're a self-taught psionicist who came to the attention of (for example) Hamanu and were 'offered' a position in his service, then maybe you're a psionicist of a non-templar background who was granted a templar's medallion in play, etc etc etc.

However, all this is (frankly) a bit moot unless the designers make the decision to allow/promote Templars as PCs. And that's a setting theme decision they're going to have to ponder over quite a bit. Not to beat around the bush, but as written in both 2e and 4e, the templarates are in most cases profoundly oppressive institutions enforcing brutal order (under the guise of law) in tyrannical slave states ruled by immortal genocidal monsters. This is not to say this portrayal is universal. Oronis of Kurn is an LG avangion wannabe and he has a templarate, and it's no doubt much different in character to (for instance) the templarate of Guistenal or Eldaarich. And the portrayal of Hamanu's templarate (and his rulership in general) in Lynn Abbey's books is very, very different to how it's portrayed in the majority of the 2e game line. The majority of templars are the quintessential bad cops working in a system that encourages them to be bad. While my personal mental Athas is heavily Abbey-influenced so i'd like a more ambiguous templarate and a less nakedly moustache-twirlingly eeevil set of sorcerer-kings for them to serve in the interests of setting complexity and drama, I have to acknowledge that this flies in the face of the heavy majority of 2e/4e source material. And in the current climate, and given their currently-expressed commitment to paying more attention to minority views, does WotC really want to be bringing out a setting where one of the standard PC options is oppressive enforcers of an evil slave state? Cos that is 100% what templars are. To be honest I reckon if we see an official 5e Dark Sun, the only place we see templars may well be in the monster manual.

 

[Remathilis]

Templars are a surprisingly problematic character concept.

• 2e Templar is a Cleric who "worships" a draconicized human Wizard, the "sorcerer-king" (analogous to a Caesar as a divine-king).

• 4e deleted Divine classes
• 4e made elemental Cleric ANY Primal class (Druid, Shaman, et al), and templar Cleric ANY Arcane class (Wizard, Warlock, et al).
• 4e made Templar a "theme" ( ≈ extra feats at level 1 character creation).

Here are the following suggestions from forumers in this thread with regard to a 5e templar.

• Templar is a Divine Cleric, such as a War domain, an Arcana domain, or a new domain, being a non-defiler (compare 2e).
• Templar is an Arcane Warlock, with a new pact with the sorcerer-king as a patron, with a license to defile (compare 4e).
• Templar is a Paladin, with sorcerer-king oath, or even the Oath of Tyranny straightforwardly, as a Divine non-defiler enforcer (compare 2e).
• Templar is an Eldritch Knight, gaining spells known from the sorcerer-king, with a license to defile (compare 4e)
• Templar is a 5e Background that can be any class, and gains a special relationship with a particular sorcerer-king (combine both 2e and 4e).

Are there other suggestions?

Deriving from D&D tradition, the Templar must be a spellcaster. 2e is a non-defiler Divine full-caster. 4e is a defiler Arcane full- or partial-caster.

For 5e, it seems the most important decision is whether the Templar is an Arcane defiler or a Divine non-defiler. But either option seems equally valid.

A secondary decision is whether this is a full-caster or any caster.

The Templar can work as a 5e Background, regardless of which classes are allowed to be prerequisites for this Background.

I'm actually leaning on a background* and an option for SK pact. Then Templars can be war clerics, SK pact warlocks, conquest paladins, or just mundane berucrats and soliders of the Sk.

* Esp using the Ravnica system where they grant additional spell choice.

 

[Haldrik]

As far as I can tell, I am leaning toward both the suggestions of @humble minion and @Remathilis, and others.

Make Templar a 5e Background.

I like the idea of the Background allowing the character to swap in specific spells. (I am similarly ok with a Background allowing proficiency with a specific martial weapon, such as making Elven Fighting Style an elven Background, rather than an elven species trait. Make one elven Background grant longsword and an other elven Background a longbow.) So, yes to flavorful spell list.

It remains possible, the capital city Urik specifically allows characters of any class to join the "Templarate", while a different capital city is far more restrictive about who can qualify to be a Templar.

Player characters can be unusual. A character could be a Fighter who is a Templar from Urik. Foreigner Templars from Urik might be part of the embassy, whether diplomats or security. They might oversee international projects, such as magical research to reduce negative impact of defiling, or to build biodomes that are more resistant to defiling. Or so on. Foreign nationals are appropriate.

It could be, Templars are Evil, and can only be nonplayer characters. No doubt, some DMs will do this defacto, and go for a classic Good versus Evil adventure.

However, for other DMs who want "darker" "edgier" campaigns, Templar player character can be reasonable. Despite the sorcerer-king being overtly Evil and the Templar bureaucracy being highly exploitative, the imperial government itself happens to be the one who supplies vital needs, including limiting defiling, and rule-of-law generally. So even a Chaotic Good character might be Templar despite a pained conscience. At least until a different solution becomes thinkable.

 

[Danzauker]

I don't equating a templar with a job (and thus a background) is doing it a favor.

I'm quite sure there will be a lot of people in service of a sorcerer-king templarate, but just as not every "fighter" is a Fighter, not every "templar" is a Templar. There will be bureucrats, tax enforcers and actual spellcasters. Maybe specialized corps where you can fit War Clerics and Tyranny Paladins.

I think in lore a Templar is such a central part of the setting that just as a Psion it deserves to be a full class (or subclass) whether you refluff a Warlock, a Cleric or anything else.

The big point of discussion, for me, if all this work is justified for a class that in the majority of games will pobably be restricted to NPSs...

 

[Haldrik]

I don't equating a templar with a job (and thus a background) is doing it a favor.

I'm quite sure there will be a lot of people in service of a sorcerer-king templarate, but just as not every "fighter" is a Fighter, not every "templar" is a Templar. There will be bureucrats, tax enforcers and actual spellcasters. Maybe specialized corps where you can fit War Clerics and Tyranny Paladins.

I think in lore a Templar is such a central part of the setting that just as a Psion it deserves to be a full class (or subclass) whether you refluff a Warlock, a Cleric or anything else.

The big point of discussion, for me, if all this work is justified for a class that in the majority of games will pobably be restricted to NPSs...

Yeah. Just like 5e has both the Cleric class and the Priest background, 5e Dark Sun could have both the Templar subclass and the Templarate background.

However, if the Templar is a normal 5e subclass, like War domain Cleric, then mechanically there would be only a Background.

A Cleric might be War or Arcana. A Paladin might Tyranny.

...

A Warlock might be ... a normal Infernal pact. Altho there are no devils in Dark Sun, the sorcerer-king is a DEFILER, potentially with the same Lawful Evil, elemental fire, deathly necrotic and poison tropes, and so on. The Infernal Warlock makes a pact with a specific sorcerer-king, rather than with a specific devil.

Of course, 5e Dark Sun can make one or more subclasses that finetune the Templar flavor.

Alternatively, it can be a single Templarate Background, only. Each sorcerer-king will decide for oneself who can be a Templar. Meanwhile, each DM can decide if player characters need apply.