How Would Your Favorite Game System Handle This?

[Reynard]

ETA: Just as a reminder, thus thread is not intended to be about how you,asGM,would run the scenario. It is about game system design.

Note 1: This is a thread about game design and preferences. The point is to talk about the different ways that different RPGs resolve situations.

Note 2: "Favorite" in the subject line can also be interpreted as "preferred" and might come from a game you WISH existed. Again, the point here is to talk about how things get done in play, as enabled by the rules and the mechanics of the game.

The Scenario: the classic "party heist" where one character is on over watch from a removed location, a stealthy character is meant to search for The Thing inside, while the face character keeps the Villain busy, with the Heavy uncomfortably shoved into a suit and ready for inevitable violence. Note that the genre does not matter: it could be cyberpunk, fantasy or modern espionage or anything else, as long as the structure and archetypes make sense.

How does your favorite game do this? How does it deal with nearly every character in the group essentially separated doing their own thing simultaneously? How do the rules interact with one character watching from afar and being the comms hub? How does it keep the Heavy engaged until violence starts? How does stealth work? Social interaction? What about being discovered by the guards or enemies or whatever? What happens if one character enters combat or conflict but the others don't?

If your favorite game can't really manage this sort of situation, why? Would you modify that system, or seek a game that isn't your favorite but does this better? Or would you simply not use this situation in play?

 

[Gorgon Zee]

For modern, my favorite system for a heist adventure would likely be FATE.

How do the rules interact with one character watching from afar and being the comms hub?

Their most likely actions would be to create an advantage, but there are also a fair number of leadership feats you can take which would be useful.

How does it keep the Heavy engaged until violence starts?

FATE doesn’t really encourage a one-trick character like a Heavy, but if there was such a character, I’d have them set up choke points and fallback positions, or use physical strength to break into places (mechanically, allowing two zones to be connected

How does stealth work?

As this is a major feature of the genre, i’d make this an obstacle with a number of aspects, each of which needs to be overcome to allow the players to be unseen (mechanically, have the aspect “undetected”). When unseen, no enemy can react to their action, but if they fail on task, it may re-enable one of the stealth aspects. Sample aspects might be “cctv coverage”, “radio monitoring”, “regular patrols” and “IR traps”

Social interaction?

Mostly to give advantages to other team members, but could also be used to overcome stealth aspects — deceiving patrols, for example.

What about being discovered by the guards or enemies or whatever?

Cannot happen if detection has been overcome; when it does I would likely immediately move to conflict. In a cinematic game, it might be possible to re-establish stealth, but in a more realistic game, no.

What happens if one character enters combat or conflict but the others don't?

This is pretty common in my FATE games. I’d honestly expect it in this scenario. A couple of characters handling the conflict while others overcome computer security, break into a safe, or similar, is a classic trope. No special handling needed,

 

[Theory of Games]

Note 1: This is a thread about game design and preferences. The point is to talk about the different ways that different RPGs resolve situations.

Note 2: "Favorite" in the subject line can also be interpreted as "preferred" and might come from a game you WISH existed. Again, the point here is to talk about how things get done in play, as enabled by the rules and the mechanics of the game.

The Scenario: the classic "party heist" where one character is on over watch from a removed location, a stealthy character is meant to search for The Thing inside, while the face character keeps the Villain busy, with the Heavy uncomfortably shoved into a suit and ready for inevitable violence. Note that the genre does not matter: it could be cyberpunk, fantasy or modern espionage or anything else, as long as the structure and archetypes make sense.

How does your favorite game do this? How does it deal with nearly every character in the group essentially separated doing their own thing simultaneously? How do the rules interact with one character watching from afar and being the comms hub? How does it keep the Heavy engaged until violence starts? How does stealth work? Social interaction? What about being discovered by the guards or enemies or whatever? What happens if one character enters combat or conflict but the others don't?

If your favorite game can't really manage this sort of situation, why? Would you modify that system, or seek a game that isn't your favorite but does this better? Or would you simply not use this situation in play?

Mutants & Masterminds 3e:

• PC1 is in a van parked outside monitoring the site's surveillance/computer system (Skill Mastery: Technology), disables the freight elevator (Technology) and maintains comms with the team
• PC2 is crawling through the ventilation system (skill challenge: Stealth + Acrobatics) following a map drawn on the palm of her hand to eventually reach the safe-room where she can dodge security (stealth check) and engage the lock (Technology check) (Skill Mastery advantage for all skills + Ultimate Effort: Technology to hack the safe)
• PC3 (posing as a law enforcement official, Skill Mastery: Deception) is chatting ( (Skill Mastery: Persuasion + Fascination advantage) up security personnel to keep them distracted from their patrols
• PC4 (posing as elevator repair dude, Skill Mastery: Deception) shows up with gear (weapons) and sets up in "disabled" elevator ready to provide support if things go pear-shaped (listens to his favorite podcast while waiting)
• Earpiece comms keep the team on the same page, especially with PC1 outside operating as "overwatch"
• If PC2 can't get the MacGuffin, she calls "abort", PC1 triggers the sprinklers (Technology) and everyone exits the building

M&M can handle ANY situation because it's designed for the insanity that is comic books. Fantasy ttrpgs can handle heists well IF the party has good thieves and magic. Most of the Modern ttrpgs can do heists IF the party has the requisite technical skill and gear.

 

[John Dallman]

The Scenario: the classic "party heist" where one character is on over watch from a removed location, a stealthy character is meant to search for The Thing inside, while the face character keeps the Villain busy, with the Heavy uncomfortably shoved into a suit and ready for inevitable violence. Note that the genre does not matter: it could be cyberpunk, fantasy or modern espionage or anything else, as long as the structure and archetypes make sense.

The way I'd run this, irrespective of game system, depends on how much communication the characters can do. If they have everyone-to-everyone telepathy, or radio systems so high-tech that their use isn't obvious to outsiders in conversation with them, then I'd run everyone's actions in parallel, so that they all know what's happening to each other.

If they don't have mutual communication, I'd skip between them, doing a few minutes of play with each character, but not making it clear where their timelines are relative to each other. When something happens that several of them know about - loud noises are a favourite - then their timelines become synchronised. Obviously, this requires guessing where a synchronising event is likely to happen, and keeping that ahead of the other timelines. If something unexpected happens, I may have to fudge the timing a little.

How does your favorite game do this? How does it deal with nearly every character in the group essentially separated doing their own thing simultaneously?

See above.

How do the rules interact with one character watching from afar and being the comms hub?

Depends how the comms work. They're the key thing in this situation. If the over-watcher has to deliberately initiate communication with others, and it's obvious they're receiving information (e.g., they have to accept a call on a mobile handset) then the steathly infiltrator and the face-man may well not want to receive communication, because it will blow their cover.

How does it keep the Heavy engaged until violence starts?

I'll keep providing him information on what he can see/hear/etc., and what seems to be going on. Since he is not busy, he has an important role in raising the alarm if something unexpected happens.

How does stealth work? Social interaction?

Now we're in game system territory. I'll take GURPS 4e please, Carol.

Stealth is a contest of rolls between the infiltrator's Stealth, possibly modified by equipment or encumbrance, against the guards' Perception. The infiltrator may also need to use Traps skill to detect and avoid alarms, or possibly use other skills depending on the situation.

Social interaction uses an Influence skill (Diplomacy, Fast-Talk, Intimidation, Savoir-Faire, Sex Appeal, or Streetwise) against the target's Will, with situational modifiers, sometime quite large ones, for reasonableness, target's advantages and disadvantages, and circumstances.

For an example from yesterday's game, the target (The Duke of Windsor) was out sightseeing and shooting with a party of British expatriates in 1940 Gambia. His party had looked at one of a large cluster of stone circles, and was strolling towards another where there was a large crowd of natives, for reasons that weren't obvious.

A group of Europeans come running towards him, not holding weapons, who seem quite concerned about something. The two who arrive first, quite puffed out, are two of the crew of the aircraft that's taking him to the Bahamas, in a long series of flights. They've been quite helpful, and they explain, with a successful Diplomacy roll, that the natives are holding a funeral for someone important. They quote the Ancient Roman adage about not interfering with subject people's religion unless it's really necessary, and suggest watching respectfully from a distance.

This seemed like a reasonable idea, and the Duke was able to use his military training to point out a small hill that offered a good view. The new arrivals (the PCs) then broke out gin, whisky and good cigarettes to keep the Duke's party entertained.

What about being discovered by the guards or enemies or whatever? What happens if one character enters combat or conflict but the others don't?

Nothing special happens if one character is in combat and others aren't. If an alarm is raised, the infiltrator may well try to exploit people moving around to get further in, or escape, without being noticed. The heavy may well try to ambush the villain; the over-watcher presumably has ranged attacks, and so on.

 

[Thomas Shey]

My tendency is to answer "badly", largely because I don't think most any game I'm interested in other ways really handles a bunch of separated parallel actions like that particularly ideally, largely from time consumption and involvement issues. There are ways to make some of them work better (I've commented before that I actually think even a lot of crunchy games under-mechanic everything but combat), but some elements are just the fact that unless you put your thumb on the scale to make sure every part of that is as fraught as every other part (and at least one of the three--the observer--intrinsically isn't to my view), you're always going to have the potential for some to grab spotlight more than others (and if the combatant is sitting the other three parts out, and doesn't find watching/listening to the other parts at least somewhat interesting, that's as it is).

There are ways to minimize the problems here, but they all involve situation-resolution approach systems, and I'm not really a fan of those.

 

[ThrorII]

Regardless of system, and actual rules written for said system, I'd probably run it in such a way that each character involved has tasks to accomplish that will aid one or more other characters if successful.

An modern-game example of which would be the ' Overwatch' character hacking the CCTV system to provide a stealth bonus to the 'Sneaky' character to avoid discovery.

I would also allow successful rolls that provide a bonus be either used by the character generating the bonus, or given to another character that makes sense narrative-wise.

For Example, 'The Face' character attending the galla ball where the heist is taking place gets time with the Big Bad, and makes a successful roll (reaction roll, perception, investigation, whatever) and learns some information. 'The Face' could excuse himself to pass that information to the 'Stealth' guy to aid him (mechanical bonus), or use it himself to 'dig deeper' with the Big Bad to learn more. I'd make sure both options have benefits and drawbacks. Aiding 'The Stealth' character means loosing your chance to learn additional information that would be important to the plot. Staying with the Big Bad and using that bonus to learn more important details of the 'Big Plan/Big Picture/etc would mean that 'The Stealth' PC is on his own and will not get that information, making the immediate mission harder.

 

[billd91]

How does it deal with nearly every character in the group essentially separated doing their own thing simultaneously?

To my mind, this is the single, thorniest issue you’ve raised. How to keep people engaged, whether the Heavy or not, when another player has the spotlight when the party is split up. And a major part of the solution, pretty much whatever the system, is the GM keeping focus moving around the table so nobody is sitting back too long and not doing anything. Exactly how long this is will vary with your players. If it’s really short, maybe this kind of splitting up isn’t workable with the group.

 

[Lanefan]

Note 1: This is a thread about game design and preferences. The point is to talk about the different ways that different RPGs resolve situations.

Note 2: "Favorite" in the subject line can also be interpreted as "preferred" and might come from a game you WISH existed. Again, the point here is to talk about how things get done in play, as enabled by the rules and the mechanics of the game.

The Scenario: the classic "party heist" where one character is on over watch from a removed location, a stealthy character is meant to search for The Thing inside, while the face character keeps the Villain busy, with the Heavy uncomfortably shoved into a suit and ready for inevitable violence. Note that the genre does not matter: it could be cyberpunk, fantasy or modern espionage or anything else, as long as the structure and archetypes make sense.

So far this all makes sense.

How does your favorite game do this? How does it deal with nearly every character in the group essentially separated doing their own thing simultaneously? How do the rules interact with one character watching from afar and being the comms hub? How does it keep the Heavy engaged until violence starts? How does stealth work? Social interaction? What about being discovered by the guards or enemies or whatever? What happens if one character enters combat or conflict but the others don't?

There's lots and lots of variables here that preclude a hard-and-fast answer, the biggest of which is whether or not the characters are somehow able to communicate with each other either a) with or b) without blowing their stealth.

IME in situations like this - and I've run a few over time - most often the characters have not had comms ability, and have made a plan, arranged some (re)actions based on contingencies and what-ifs, and then gone their own ways hoping and assuming the others each do what they said they'd do.

In play I handle this scenario by secret note until-unless the actions of one character are likely to be noticed by another. Which means yes, I'd in this example be running 4 little sub-parties with the players unaware of how characters not their own were faring. It would also mean two players - the stealth guy and the face - do most of the note-writing; and further means the pace of play slows right down as writing takes much longer than speaking. There's no real attempt to keep the tank engaged as the tank's player has in effect signed up for being not engaged when agreeing to this plan; ditto the watcher though here at least I can pass an occasional note updating the watcher as to whether there's anything to be seen.

As for actual system, for each individual I just use the rules in place (which for the face just means roleplaying the chat as my preferred system doesn't really use hard-coded social mechanics).

Now if the characters do have the ability to easily and silently communicate with each other e.g. via telepathy or through spy-like earpieces, that changes everything; as each character can quickly know what the others are saying and-or doing and whether things are going right or wrong it can all be done almost as normal play. The main difference is that each character is on its own if things go wrong until one or more other characters can physically get there to help out.

Again, the existing rules handle the mechanics when required; and though the spotlight for this scene will again fall mostly on the face and the stealthy, the presence of always-on comms means the others can throw in suggestions and input whenever they like.

If your favorite game can't really manage this sort of situation, why? Would you modify that system, or seek a game that isn't your favorite but does this better? Or would you simply not use this situation in play?

I'd never "not use this situation", mostly because sooner or later all sorts of different situations are liable to naturally arise from the run of play and I'd rather not arbitrarily shut down any of them.

If something arises that really does go beyond the system's mechanical bounds it's probably a one-off (as in, it's something that hasn't arisen and been ruled on in the 40+ years previously meaning I've probably got another few decades before it'll come up again) and I'll just wing it as best I can.

 

[GMMichael]

To my mind, this is the single, thorniest issue you’ve raised. How to keep people engaged, whether the Heavy or not, when another player has the spotlight when the party is split up. And a major part of the solution, pretty much whatever the system, is the GM keeping focus moving around the table so nobody is sitting back too long and not doing anything. Exactly how long this is will vary with your players. If it’s really short, maybe this kind of splitting up isn’t workable with the group.

Truth. OP is a GM-conundrum to me, not a system issue. How does the GM divvy up the spotlight?

What makes everyone-in-a-single-combat run smoother than splitting the party is that the GM has a single situation to describe. If you split the party, you can potentially have more than one situation going on. Turn-based play can be good for splitting the party because each PC is guaranteed a turn in the spotlight. But if PCs take those turns in an awkward order, the whole group can end up switching scenes often enough to have trouble tracking what's going on.

So I would try to clump PCs into their shared scenes, and run each of those for a couple minutes at a time. Movie-timing would take precedence over turn-timing, so each scene makes a statement before moving on to the next.

 

[Lanefan]

Truth. OP is a GM-conundrum to me, not a system issue. How does the GM divvy up the spotlight?

What makes everyone-in-a-single-combat run smoother than splitting the party is that the GM has a single situation to describe. If you split the party, you can potentially have more than one situation going on. Turn-based play can be good for splitting the party because each PC is guaranteed a turn in the spotlight. But if PCs take those turns in an awkward order, the whole group can end up switching scenes often enough to have trouble tracking what's going on.

To me the biggest challenge in split-party situations (assuming no comms) is preventing players from gaining - and then (ab)using - knowledge their characters wouldn't have. Thus the use of secret notes; I-as-DM am the only one who has to multi-task and the players are exactly as siloed as their characters.