How's the barbarian beta working out?

[Felon]

No. They are inferior at Nova-ing to every other class. Even with Rage Strike. The Dailies arent on par with the other striker options when you dont consider the Rage benefits and they are forced to either forgo the higher level rage benefit in the early rounds by waiting to use it or give it up by using a lower level rage.

"Inferior to every other class"? That has the ring of hyperbole.

From looking them over, barbarian dailies seem okay as far as being "on-par" with the vast majority of striker dailies. Seems to me that when folks get into doing these power comparisons, they look for the most "uber" power they can find in the class (even if it's 29th level) and then compare it to what the other guy's most broken thing is at that level. Thus, the comparison winds up portraying the extreme as the baseline. I notice, for example, that all arguments that the barbarian is weak compared to other strikers is done by pretending the warlock doesn't exist at all.

So, when saying the barbarian is the weakest of all classes when comes to "novaing" (lousy term that), there's an implicit "as long as you don't count the gimped classes, of course".

Rage Strike has NO effect other than below average damage for a daily of that level.

"NO effect" is another outright hyperbolic thing to say. Is it really your contention that when the barb turns a 9th-level daily into 5[W], nobody's impressed. Children point at him and laugh? That we can't find a single class who's not outperforming that?

I will grant that it's odd that the design seems to lock in a rage attack at a 3[W] cap, and that might be incentive sufficient to allow rage strike as an at-will during my playtest.

 

[Marshall]

"Inferior to every other class"? That has the ring of hyperbole.

No other class is forced to give up the effects of its previous attacks to make a new one. Yes, I'd consider that inferior to every other class.

From looking them over, barbarian dailies seem fine as far as being "on-par" with the vast majority of striker dailies. Seem like some folks skew the comparison by portraying the extreme as the baseline--picking some mediocre daily from the barbarian's repetoire and comparing to one of the more extreme dailies from another class. I notice, for example, that all arguments that the barbarian is weak compared to other strikers is done by pretending the warlock exists at all.

True. I wonder how many people actually consider the Warlock a true striker and dont think of it more as a Controller/Striker.
OTOH, we dont have the entire list of Barbarian dailies to compare yet, we could be looking at the 'best' Barbarian vs the mediocre other and still coming up weak.

"NO effect" is another outright hyperbolic thing to say. Is it really your contention that when the barb turns a 9th-level daily into 5[W], nobody's impressed. Children point at him and laugh? That we can't find a single class who's not outperforming that?

At 9th level you're going to be raging with that ninth level daily and converting the lower level rages to damage. Even if for some reason you use a lower level rage and then convert your ninth 5[W] + stat < 4[W] + 2(stat) and/or effect.
Laughing? No. But its not a GOOD option for your daily powers.

 

[Felon]

Note that I edited some of my post while you were composing your reply, Marshall.

No other class is forced to give up the effects of its previous attacks to make a new one. Yes, I'd consider that inferior to every other class.

But...that's because the other classes don't get an array of encounter-long benefits from their daily attacks. The only major exception would be the fighter's stances, which happen to have the exact same limitation. Seems kind of like winning the lottery and then telling other people how unlucky you are to have to pay all those takes. Now, many dailies can be sustained for additional effects, but if the character chooses to use the action required for something else, then the power goes away. Sustaining a power is a privilege, not an entitlement, and that seems very much like the barbarian choosing to forego a rage's effects by activating another rage.

So, let me ask this then: if instead of a rage's effects working like a stance (only one at a time), would it be better if they were "sustain minor" (keeps going as long as you pay the action cost)?

At 9th level you're going to be raging with that ninth level daily and converting the lower level rages to damage. Even if for some reason you use a lower level rage and then convert your ninth 5[W] + stat < 4[W] + 2(stat) and/or effect.
Laughing? No. But its not a GOOD option for your daily powers.

Actually, were I to play a barbarian I would be tempted do just the reverse of what you suggest. I'd happily take the benefits of the level 1 daily and then convert the higher level ones into raw damage.

 

[Cadfan]

If you're talking about daily utilities as Cadfan was, then those don't count when discussing rages. Thought that was pretty obvious, but Cadfan brought up stuff like Armor of Agathys.

I wasn't ever talking about daily utilities. Perhaps you are thinking of someone else?

I just gave the bog-standard "its a replacement for other classes ability to use 3 dailies in one encounter" answer. Which it is.

 

[Felon]

I wasn't ever talking about daily utilities. Perhaps you are thinking of someone else?

I just gave the bog-standard "its a replacement for other classes ability to use 3 dailies in one encounter" answer. Which it is.

Sorry, that was RickVigorous. My bad.

 

[RickVigorous]

Sorry, that was RickVigorous. My bad.

I wasn't talking about utilities either. Armor of Agathys is a warlock attack 1. It lasts all encounter and stacks with similar effects.

But...that's because the other classes don't get an array of encounter-long benefits from their daily attacks. The only major exception would be the fighter's stances, which happen to have the exact same limitation. Seems kind of like winning the lottery and then telling other people how unlucky you are to have to pay all those takes. Now, many dailies can be sustained for additional effects, but if the character chooses to use the action required for something else, then the power goes away. Sustaining a power is a privilege, not an entitlement, and that seems very much like the barbarian choosing to forego a rage's effects by activating another rage.

The fact that rages all encounter is a benefit, and if barbarian rages 1) did level-appropriate damage or 2) were a proper subset of the barbarian's daily attack powers, then rage strike would be unnecessary.

For the record, if all fighter (or ranger or rogue) dailies were stances, then I would support a rage-strike type power for fighters. But not all fighter dailies are stances. So if a fighter winds up unable to use all his dailies in one encounter because they're all stances, it's because of his choices. The barbarian, on the other hand, doesn't get a choice in the matter.

Actually, were I to play a barbarian I would be tempted do just the reverse of what you suggest. I'd happily take the benefits of the level 1 daily and then convert the higher level ones into raw damage.

This will be appropriate sometimes, but not in general. It will depend on the situation. Sometimes, there will be one rage the gives the right bonuses. If the barbarian wants to expend all her dailies in this situation without rage strike, she'll either have to 1) go several rounds without using the ideal rage for the situation or 2) abandon the ideal rage early in the combat. Barbarians shouldn't be forced to do this, since no other class is.

I have playtested the barbarian; in my experience, rage strike is rarely used, but when it is it is often used more than once. More importantly, the barbarian is outdamaged by the (melee) ranger, the rogue, and even the fighter, whether or not rage strike is in the mix. The damage gap between the barbarian and these other classes isn't very large, and the barbarian makes an effective striker. The balance problem that I see is actually that the fighter is too good at dealing damage.

 

[Marshall]

Note that I edited some of my post while you were composing your reply, Marshall.

But...that's because the other classes don't get an array of encounter-long benefits from their daily attacks. The only major exception would be the fighter's stances, which happen to have the exact same limitation.

Except that the Rages are reduced in effectiveness to balance out those encounter long benefits. You're already paying income taxes, why add the inheritance tax on top of it?

So, let me ask this then: if instead of a rage's effects working like a stance (only one at a time), would it be better if they were "sustain minor" (keeps going as long as you pay the action cost)?

No. The simplest solution would be to allow the Barb to choose which benfits continue when he spends the second rage.

Actually, were I to play a barbarian I would be tempted do just the reverse of what you suggest. I'd happily take the benefits of the level 1 daily and then convert the higher level ones into raw damage.

What Rick said...there are times when thats a good idea. But, if you're gonna do that wouldnt you rather have that level 1 Rage and then real dailies at 5,9,+ instead of a shoehorned at-will conversion power?

 

[Spatula]

If you're talking about daily utilities as Cadfan was, then those don't count when discussing rages. Thought that was pretty obvious, but Cadfan brought up stuff like Armor of Agathys.

Huh? Utilities? Have you read the daily attack powers from other classes? They don't all have encounter-lasting effects, but a lot of them do. That's without even getting into all the sustain minor powers.

beacon of hope (cleric 1)
guardian of faith (cleric 1)
weapon of the gods (cleric 5)
astral defenders (cleric 9)
divine power (cleric 9)
holy wrath (cleric 19)
knight of glory (cleric 19)

villain's menace (fighter 1)
rain of steel (fighter 5, stance)
unyielding avalanche (fighter 15, stance)
strike of the watchful guard (fighter 19)
reaoer's stance (fighter 25, stance)
force the battle (fighter 29, stance)

hallowed circle (paladin 5)
sign of vulnerability (paladin 5)
true nemesis (paladin 15)
crusader's boon (paladin 19)
exalted retribution (paladin 25)

etc. etc.

Stance powers are probably the closest mechanic to rages in that they all last the encounter and you can only have one at a time. So in that respect fighters possibly get a little screwed (there are utility stances in addition to the ones listed above), depending on power selection. As was pointed out above, though, barbarians don't have any choice in the matter. The rage strike is clunky, clunky, clunky, and I don't buy the argument that the class' damage output is so awful without it (let's all point and laugh at the warlock!), but I see why the designers felt it was necessary.

 

[frankthedm]

Yes characters being able to burn multiple dailies was the problem. Without rage strike the Barbarian's dailies were better balanced that other character dailies because they discouraged Nova-ing. Sadly rather than fix the problem starting with the barbarian, better late than never, Wotc decided the barbarian should have the same nova problem as everyone else.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Just tossing an idea out... what if the Barb's striker damage functioned more like the Reserve feats from 3.5? Something like... +1 damage for every unspent Encounter and/or Daily power the Barb has? In a way, this would also model the "exhaustion" effect of barbarians in previous editions.