How's the barbarian beta working out?

Thanks for responding to my concerns, Cadfan.

1. The barbarian actually can't use Rage Strike that often. You have to be raging, and then you have to spend a rage. Even if you burn all of your daily attacks in one fight, that's only two rage strikes until you reach level 20. Three with gear, I suppose. And each one costs you the ability to rage in a future fight, which is a big, big deal.
It seems to me then that there's little harm in going ahead and ruling that Rage Strike is an encounter power, not at-will. If he wasn't inclined to use it more than once a battle anyway, then no harm done. But, when characters are that point where they're confident they're at the last fight of the day, the barbarian doesn't just empty out his remaining dailies.

2. I don't think its easy to compare barbarian dailies to other classes dailies. Other strikers so far have bonus damage effects. The rogue has his sneak attack damage, and the ranger has his hunter's quarry, etc. These are "always on" effects that improve damage. The barbarian doesn't have these. Instead he has rages. So what you're seeing with his dailies is that they aren't only a daily attack, they've also got a class ability folded into them.
Thing is, Hunter's Quarry and Sneak Attack aren't "always on". I find that to be an "on-paper" perspective. I've seen and played characters that just had to do without.

OTOH, every barbarian attack seems to have something that's as good as a warlock's curse. Howling Strike has a built in +1d6. Other powers do stuff like add extra Con damage. That sort of thing. But I'm fine with letting this be born out through playtesting.
 

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It seems to me then that there's little harm in going ahead and ruling that Rage Strike is an encounter power, not at-will. If he wasn't inclined to use it more than once a battle anyway, then no harm done. But, when characters are that point where they're confident they're at the last fight of the day, the barbarian doesn't just empty out his remaining dailies.
That's precisely why rage strike needs to be at-will—because every other class has the option to use all their dailies in one encounter if they'd like. The rage mechanic gives barbarians a disincentive to expend all their resources in one fight. But sometimes that's called for, and so rage strike lets the barbarian do so without forcing them to give up their rage benefits.

Keep in mind that the damage from rage strike isn't actually that impressive. Yes, 9[W] looks like a lot of damage, but it's typically going to be less than you'll get from assassin's point, five-missile dance, or even blade cascade. In general, powers that hit more than once will deal more damage than the barbarian's rage strike.

At the moment, a well-built fighter can fairly easily outdamage a barbarian, even accounting for the barbarian's rampage (swift charge is harder to figure and is an encounter power anyway), thanks to feats like marked scourge. Tempest or battlerager fighters can do so easily, but even weapon talent fighters can pull it off.
 

It seems to me then that there's little harm in going ahead and ruling that Rage Strike is an encounter power, not at-will. If he wasn't inclined to use it more than once a battle anyway, then no harm done. But, when characters are that point where they're confident they're at the last fight of the day, the barbarian doesn't just empty out his remaining dailies.
This is true. There's little harm in making Rage Strike an encounter power. Technically, its about the same as making the ability to use a daily power into a "twice per encounter" ability, stopping players from nova-ing (to the extent that you can nova in 4e). I'm not sure its 100% necessary, but if your group is suffering from it, it can't hurt.

I think the barbarian is going to get a nebulous power down in a few areas. My problem is that I can't adequately predict where those areas will be, other than armor. So I can't really object here.
Thing is, Hunter's Quarry and Sneak Attack aren't "always on". I find that to be an "on-paper" perspective. I've seen and played characters that just had to do without.
I didn't mean "always on" in that way... I should have been more clear. I mean, sure, the barbarian's rage strike does X[W] damage, where X is a big number. And the rogue's dailies do Y[W] damage, where Y is a smaller number. But you can safely expect that the vast majority of the time, particularly on daily powers, there will be an additional +Z damage due to sneak attack. And by my calculations, Deep Cut is on par with Rage Strike using moderate optimization for both characters.
OTOH, every barbarian attack seems to have something that's as good as a warlock's curse. Howling Strike has a built in +1d6. Other powers do stuff like add extra Con damage. That sort of thing. But I'm fine with letting this be born out through playtesting.
Well... the warlock's curse is kind of lame.* So that may be the case.

I'm personally of the opinion that fixing some of the poorly worded rages (knock a foe prone as a free action at the start of your turn? You know I can perform unlimited free actions, right?), and fixing the AC issues, fixes the class 99% of the way.

*Hunter's Quarry is better than the Warlock's Curse because Rangers can expect to attack multiple times, turning the Quarry into "if you hit with at least one attack, do additional damage" while the Curse is "if you hit, do additional damage." This makes the Quarry about 50% better if you hit 50% of the time against a particular target.
 

That's precisely why rage strike needs to be at-will—because every other class has the option to use all their dailies in one encounter if they'd like. The rage mechanic gives barbarians a disincentive to expend all their resources in one fight. But sometimes that's called for, and so rage strike lets the barbarian do so without forcing them to give up their rage benefits.
I've heard this rationale before, and I still don't buy it. The barbarian has the same option to use all their dailies in one encounter as everyone else. Sure, a rage effect can potentially last an encounter, but that's a privilege, not an entitlement. It's a privilege because other classes don't have the option of milking a daily for an entire encounter.

If you use a second rage in the same encounter, it's not like you're giving up something and getting nothing in return. The old rage effect will end and the new one will take its place.

While you say spending all of one's resources in a fight is sometimes called for, I say wad-shooting happens far more often than it's called for. The "compensation" provided by Rage Strike is largely unwarranted--as it's based on a misplaced notion of "have your cake and eat it too" entitlement--but making it an encounter power at least makes for a reasonable middle ground.

Keep in mind that the damage from rage strike isn't actually that impressive. Yes, 9[W] looks like a lot of damage, but it's typically going to be less than you'll get from assassin's point, five-missile dance, or even blade cascade.
Well, understand, I'm not really concerned with comparing 29th level powers in my early paragon-tier campaign, but even so you may still have a point. That's the part I'm willing to playtest out.
 
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I've heard this rationale before, and I still don't buy it. The barbarian has the same option to use all their dailies in one encounter as everyone else. Sure, a rage effect can potentially last an encounter, but that's a privilege, not an entitlement. It's a privilege because other classes don't have the option of milking a daily for an entire encounter.

If you use a second rage in the same encounter, it's not like you're giving up something and getting nothing in return. The old rage effect will end and the new one will take its place. There's no big shaft here.
The various rage powers don't actually do much damage on their own. Compare, for instance, the barbarian's 15th level thunderfury rage (doing 3[W] damage, half on a miss) to the fighter's dragon fangs (which gets two shots for 3[W], each doing half on miss and adding static modifiers twice) or serpent dance strike (getting 3 or four attacks for 2[W] and static modifiers, depending on how you read "repeat the attack up to three times"). And that's just fighters. Rangers have blade cascade and confounding arrows; rogues have slaying strike, vicious cooperation, and ripple effect. If, on the other hand, the barbarian uses rage strike, he gets 6[W] plus static modifiers by spending a 15th level power. This still leaves him outclassed by everyone, damage-wise (except maybe the rogue), since the fighter and the ranger will be adding their static damage multiple times.

Also, note that other classes can benefit from (some of) their dailies for an entire encounter. Wizards, warlocks, and clerics have sustained effects and powers like armor of agathys. Fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords have stances and can inflict other long-term effects with powers like splintering shot, walking wounded, and lead the attack. Paladins even have a few powers like wrath of the gods.

Rages are more like stances than like sustained effects. But no martial character is obliged to take any stances, or to take more than one stance. Barbarians have no choice in the matter. So they have more need for a rage strike-type effect.
While you say spending all of one's resources in a fight is sometimes called for, I say wad-shooting happens far more often than it's called for. The "compensation" provided by Rage Strike is largely unwarranted--as it's based on a misplaced notion of "have your cake and eat it too" entitlement--but making it an encounter power at least makes for a reasonable middle ground.
Perhaps people expend all their resources when it isn't called for. That doesn't mean that expending all of one's resources is never called for, and hence the barbarian should be able to do so while still performing their role as strikers. And since rages often do less damage than the dailies of other classes, rage strike is a good way of letting the barbarian go all-out when called for without sacrificing their damage output.
Well, understand, I'm not really concerned with comparing 29th level powers in my early paragon-tier campaign, but even so you may still have a point. That's the part I'm willing to playtest out.
The example above is mid-paragon. It turns out, though, that generally a well-built fighter or ranger will do more damage with their dailies than a barbarian, even with rage strike, at more-or-less every level. At 9th level, the barbarian fares better, but even there the 5[W] rage strike is outclassed by attacks on the run for rangers, and provides comparable DPR against jackal strike and thicket of blades for the fighter.
 

I've heard this rationale before, and I still don't buy it. The barbarian has the same option to use all their dailies in one encounter as everyone else. Sure, a rage effect can potentially last an encounter, but that's a privilege, not an entitlement. It's a privilege because other classes don't have the option of milking a daily for an entire encounter.
Actually, quite a few dailies (from other classes) have effects that last the encounter. But unlike the rage side effects, those all potentially stack.
 

1. The barbarian actually can't use Rage Strike that often. You have to be raging, and then you have to spend a rage. Even if you burn all of your daily attacks in one fight, that's only two rage strikes until you reach level 20. Three with gear, I suppose. And each one costs you the ability to rage in a future fight, which is a big, big deal.
Sounds like Barbarians are the nova kings of one-encounter adventuring days, then... :-(

Allow me to repeat the earlier question: why isn't this made into an Encounter power?
 

Sounds like Barbarians are the nova kings of one-encounter adventuring days, then... :-(

Allow me to repeat the earlier question: why isn't this made into an Encounter power?
No. They are inferior at Nova-ing to every other class. Even with Rage Strike. The Dailies arent on par with the other striker options when you dont consider the Rage benefits and they are forced to either forgo the higher level rage benefit in the early rounds by waiting to use it or give it up by using a lower level rage. Rage Strike has NO effect other than below average damage for a daily of that level.
 

Actually, quite a few dailies (from other classes) have effects that last the encounter. But unlike the rage side effects, those all potentially stack.
If you're talking about daily utilities as Cadfan was, then those don't count when discussing rages. Thought that was pretty obvious, but Cadfan brought up stuff like Armor of Agathys.
 

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