D&D 5E HP thresholds and control: a custom system

[Olrox17]

I took the divination wizard's ability.

If someone saves against your spell, you recover an expended spell slot of lower level.

Perhaps something like the Reliable tag from 4e? "If you miss every target when using a reliable power, you don’t expend the use of that power".

 

[mellored]

Something like the Reliable tag from 4e? "If you miss every target when using a reliable power, you don’t expend the use of that power".

Similar, yes. It gives a buff to just the control spells.


Though you may want it to be 2 levels lower, or at the same level. Depending on how harsh your HP limit is. (i don't have a good grasp of monster HP).

 

[Olrox17]

Similar, yes. It gives a buff to just the control spells.


Though you may want it to be 2 levels lower, or at the same level. Depending on how harsh your HP limit is. (i don't have a good grasp of monster HP).

Would you suggest using this "spell recovery system" in conjunction with the lessened effects I was planning to do, or should they be mutually exclusive?

Example: under my design, dominate person, if used on a target over the HP threshold, only charms the target, without further effects. Would you still keep these lessened effects in, if spell recovery is implemented?

 

[mellored]

Would you suggest using this "spell recovery system" in conjunction with the lessened effects I was planning to do, or should they be mutually exclusive?

Example: under my design, dominate person, if used on a target over the HP threshold, only charms the target, without further effects. Would you still keep these lessened effects in, if spell recovery is implemented?

Hard to say, and it depend on which level of spell recovery you use. Best way is to just try it out. If things are too nerfed, or too strong, change it.

But as a rough guess, recover 1 level lower on a failed save would work with your current suggestion of lesser effects.

 

[Olrox17]

Hard to say, and it depend on which level of spell recovery you use. Best way is to just try it out. If things are too nerfed, or too strong, change it.

But as a rough guess, recover 1 level lower on a failed save would work with your current suggestion of lesser effects.

I like how spell recovery sounds, mechanically. It might be what's needed to avoid weakening control casters too hard. I'm having an hard time imagining how it will work in terms of narrative, though. The wizard casts hold person, the target is affected by the spell but is too strong to be paralyzed, so it is slowed instead...and then the wizard recovers magical energy, in form of a spell slot. I'm having an hard time figuring out what could possibly cause this recovery, in narrative terms.

What if the caster doesn't get both the lessened effect and the recovered slot, but has to pick between the two? He either goes through with his casting, accepting the diminished effect, or he aborts the spell, wasting his action but recovering the spell slot.

 

[mellored]

I like how spell recovery sounds, mechanically. It might be what's needed to avoid weakening control casters too hard. I'm having an hard time imagining how it will work in terms of narrative, though. The wizard casts hold person, the target is affected by the spell but is too strong to be paralyzed, so it is slowed instead...and then the wizard recovers magical energy, in form of a spell slot. I'm having an hard time figuring out what could possibly cause this recovery, in narrative terms.

What if the caster doesn't get both the lessened effect and the recovered slot, but has to pick between the two? He either goes through with his casting, accepting the diminished effect, or he aborts the spell, wasting his action but recovering the spell slot.

I didn't mean both. Only on a failed save do you recover.

I.e. hold person.
1: Hits, and the HP is low, getting full effect.
2: Hits, but the HP is too high, getting half effect.
3: Fails, and the mage recovers a slot.

As for naritive. "You reach out though the weave towards the enemy mind...
1: You find it and channel your energies deep into his weak mind.
2: You find it and channel your energies scraping against his mind.
3: The enemy mind slips away, and you bring back some of your magical energies for later.

Or some such.

Of course, it's your rules. Feel free to adjust them as you see fit.

 

[Quickleaf]

The worst offenders I can think of are phantasmal force, hold person, hypnotic pattern and banishment. Together, they cover a wide array of saves, they all carry devastating effects, and they're all cheap and excellent at high levels.

Well, the primary means for canceling those spells is disrupting the caster's concentration? Does that not work in your games?

And then you have secondary means like the rogue's Slippery Mind or fighter's Indomitable, the Resilient feat and magic items granting save bonuses, and dispel magic and counterspell.

To put it simply, when a blow is enough to drop someone to 0 hp, I will narrate what happened as an injury. Every other instance of damage is narrated as scratches, bruises, narrow dodges, stamina-consuming parries...basically, if a creature takes damage but is not dying on the ground, my description will usually convey how the creature is getting tired and worn out.

Which, tbh, is also how it goes in most movie duels. You usually don't see the actors getting stabbed 10 times and collapsing at the eleventh time. You see them dodging, parrying and taking minor wounds until one gets stabbed and collapses.

Oh, sorry that's not what I meant. Yes, I'm with you there. Let me be more clear about where the narrative dissonance lies for me...

Two related questions:

(1) How do you differentiate "ogre at full HP" and "ogre wounded sufficiently to be sleeped" to your players in terms of narrative? What's the narrative cue you use, if any? Let's say the player asks "could I drop him with sleep?" Do you say "who knows, you figure it out"? Do you say "the ogre looks particularly fatigued now, and might like a nap after getting worked over across the battlefield"?

(2) I have an issue in terms of the supported narrative with how sleep is best used against stronger opponents when they've taken damage, i.e. as something PCs employ later in the battle rather than, say, sleeping the trolls while they're cooking stew. How do you narratively handle that? Do you embrace the D&D-ism that creates? Do your players not do the same thing my players have done, instead self-imposing genre restrictions on their use of the sleep spell?

 

[Rune]

That being said, adding half prof to saves is a simple and elegant solution, but it doesn't solve my main issue: how low level control spells work against a CR 1 monster just as they work against a CR 20 monster. Damage spells have to deal with Hit Points AND saving throws; control spells can just bypass Hit Points (and sometimes saves too: damn you forcecage!).

The half proficiency bonus to saves was just a nonessential variant to the two versions of my proposed houserule. The main solution is on the other side of the scale.

In version 1, save DCs are derived without proficiency modifiers (and with a base 10+, instead of 8+, to partially compensate). This greatly reduces the scaling of DCs so that non-proficient saves can compete, although a proficient save with a good ability modifier will be even more likely to succeed at high levels.

In version 2, the save DC is flat, regardless of the source. This most closely resembles the role of saves in pre-3.x D&D as nothing more than a set of survival abilities.

If you want spell level to factor in, here's a third version:

All spell DCs = 12 + 1/3 spell-level, for a range of DCs 12-15 (assuming cantrips are level 0). This as granular as I can see to make it without having a DC range that is too extreme on either the low or high end.

Variation 1: Always round down. This makes all 2nd or lower-level spells DC 12, 3rd-5th level spells have DC 13, 6th-8th level spells have DC 14, and 9th level spells have DC 15.

Variation 2: Always round up. This makes cantrips DC 12, 1st-3rd level spells have DC 13, 4th-6th level spells have DC 14, and 7th-9th level spells have DC 15.

Variation 3: Round to the nearest whole number. This makes cantrips and 1st level spells DC 12, 2nd-4th level spells have DC 13, 5th-7th level spells have DC 14, and 8th-9th have DC 15.

 

[Olrox17]

I didn't mean both. Only on a failed save do you recover.

I.e. hold person.
1: Hits, and the HP is low, getting full effect.
2: Hits, but the HP is too high, getting half effect.
3: Fails, and the mage recovers a slot.

As for naritive. "You reach out though the weave towards the enemy mind...
1: You find it and channel your energies deep into his weak mind.
2: You find it and channel your energies scraping against his mind.
3: The enemy mind slips away, and you bring back some of your magical energies for later.

Or some such.

Of course, it's your rules. Feel free to adjust them as you see fit.

Right, now I get what you mean. It definitely sounds like a plausible approach, and I'll test it once the system reaches a complete, playable form. Thank you for your time, I appreciate it!

By the way, if anyone wants to stick around and help building this system, right now the biggest thing on the to do list is finding an appropriate "lessened effect" for all the control spells in the game. It's possibly the most important part of the whole project.


Here is a list of spells I'm still working on:

1 animal friendship, bane, charm person, compelled duel, entangle, ensnaring strike, tasha’s hideous laughter, wrathful smite

2 blindness/deafness, crown of madness, earthbind, hold person (target is slowed instead?), levitate, maximilian’s earthen grasp, phantasmal force, ray of enfeeblement, suggestion

3 bestow curse, blinding smite, fear, hypnotic pattern (target is only charmed?), slow, stinking cloud

4 banishment, compulsion, confusion, dominate beast, Evard’s black tentacles, otilukes’s resilient sphere, phantasmal killer, polymorph, watery sphere

5 dispel evil and good, dominate person, dream, geas, hold monster, modify memory, seeming, transmute rock, wall of stone

6 bones of the earth, eyebite, flesh to stone, magic jar, mass suggestion, otiluke’s freezing sphere, otto’s irresistible dance


If anyone wants to have a crack at them, feel free. All help is welcome.

 

[Olrox17]

Well, the primary means for canceling those spells is disrupting the caster's concentration? Does that not work in your games?

And then you have secondary means like the rogue's Slippery Mind or fighter's Indomitable, the Resilient feat and magic items granting save bonuses, and dispel magic and counterspell.

Yes, counters to control do exist. A carefully crafted group of PCs can be almost immune to control. A paladin for the aura, an abjurer for counterspelling, maybe a monk to stun and take out enemy casters. However, I don't feel like every PC party should be required to choose some very specific builds just to counter one element of the game. An element that, frankly, was just built over shaky math that lacks appropriate scaling.

That goes double for monsters. Yes, as a DM I can bestow condition immunities and legendary resistance on my critters every time I want to. But I feel like that's just a cheap way to tackle the problem. I think that the whole reason I started this project is that I think it's unfair to slap legendary resistance or a bunch of immunities on every other monster just to keep the game challenging. I wanted to do things differently, and HP thresholds is just what I happened to come up with.

Oh, sorry that's not what I meant. Yes, I'm with you there. Let me be more clear about where the narrative dissonance lies for me...

Two related questions:

(1) How do you differentiate "ogre at full HP" and "ogre wounded sufficiently to be sleeped" to your players in terms of narrative? What's the narrative cue you use, if any? Let's say the player asks "could I drop him with sleep?" Do you say "who knows, you figure it out"? Do you say "the ogre looks particularly fatigued now, and might like a nap after getting worked over across the battlefield"?

(2) I have an issue in terms of the supported narrative with how sleep is best used against stronger opponents when they've taken damage, i.e. as something PCs employ later in the battle rather than, say, sleeping the trolls while they're cooking stew. How do you narratively handle that? Do you embrace the D&D-ism that creates? Do your players not do the same thing my players have done, instead self-imposing genre restrictions on their use of the sleep spell?

(1) Right. From your signature, I get the feeling you're familiar with 4e. My players really liked the bloodied condition from 4e, so we kept it in 5e. So, basically, the monsters go through 3 phases: healthy, bloodied, and dying/dead. The bloodied condition usually helps the players a lot. Also, I always give hints if monster knowledge checks are successfully employed.

(2) I'll be honest, I never heard my players talking, let alone complaining, about that. I guess it just makes sense for them. Personally, I imagine it like this: picture yourself on the couch, watching the most boring movie ever. Are you going to fall asleep? If it's morning and you've just woken up, probably not. But after a long day of work, when you're low on energy (hit points)? Almost guaranteed!