Hubris 4e

[bmadden]

Hi

My party is 5th level and they just killed their first dragon.
I want to throw one encounter at them in the near future that will teach them that not only is it ok to run away from a fight, but it might be necessary some times.

The current setting involves them sailing a small "borrowed" ship seeking clues to a mystery in a 500 mile long chain of tropical islands that runs parallel some 30 miles from the coast of a desert kingdom.

Has anyone had any success getting a hit-point heavy (4e!) party to run from a fight? I'm not talking about the 5th encounter of the day with all the characters down to zero dailies and 1 healing surge left. I would like to throw something at them that make them take notice, discuss it, and the decide to run.

There are ruins on the islands and merfey in the waters.

Thanks
Ben

PS After this encounter they will probably get back to their regularly scheduled heroic careers.

 

[Doug McCrae]

A giant turtle so big it at first appears to be an island, with trees growing on its back. Don't bother giving it stats, it doesn't need any, the PCs can't hurt it.

 

[Dausuul]

Why do you feel it is necessary to teach them this? Are they acting unduly arrogant? Remember that they are adventurers, they're supposed to stride boldly into battle; cowering in fear is not in the job description. If attacked, they will fight back until it's clear they're going to lose.

I suppose you could send an ancient dragon at them or a demon prince or something of the sort, something that is very obviously way the hell out of their league; but unless there's a good reason for an ancient dragon to decide to squash some adventurers today, it seems kind of a dickish thing for a DM to do. What's the point of the exercise?

 

[bmadden]

Hi

I'm sorry if my post upset anyone.

I've been DMing for a very long time, and, at least for me, in 4e, I have a 5th level party which could take one or more hits from "an ancient dragon...demon prince or something of the sort" and survive due to their huge number of hit points!

(Obviously, the encounter would result in a TPK.)

My campaign outline is set up so that after the party has reached some advanced level, a number of strategic outcomes might involve the party retreating (to fight again later, or whatever.)

I'd like to "set the stage" as it were, now, so the experience is not so new to them when they're on the cusp of "saving the world" or whatever fate happens to be on the line.

Thanks
Ben

 

[bmadden]

Sweet!
Per the "Lion Turtle" from Avatar!

My kids would love that...

Ben

"A giant turtle so big it at first appears to be an island, with trees growing on its back. Don't bother giving it stats, it doesn't need any, the PCs can't hurt it."

 

[Bodhiwolff]

While I see your point in attempting to set up this type of encounter for your party, I would emphasize that you must somehow foreshadow the potential decision of the party to run away, in order to plant the seed of that possibility in their heads. Make sure they understand that there is the distinct possibility that they might make poor decisions, and that these poor decisions will get them killed.

I have played with a variety of people over the years who have been convinced that it was the DM's job to clean up their messes, provide them with plausible escape routes, and do their thinking for them. Given the nature of a lot of adventure design, where the basic assumption is that you are *supposed* to be able to clear everything in a room and survive, it isn't unreasonable to expect the party to enter into the encounter, never give ground, and go down swinging -- all the while thinking that they're doing what they are supposed to be doing.

Now, if they're forewarned that there are potential encounters which they should reasonable consider *not* taking on, then everything is hunky dory.

But let's face it ... most of the published adventures out there are designed with an eye towards balancing the adventure towards the party's level and abilities. Most parties wouldn't consider retreat an option, simply because for most adventures you *have* to get through the next obstacle to keep the storyline moving.

It'd be a shame to have your party get wiped out, simply because they thought they were doing what *you* wanted them to, y'know?

 

[fanboy2000]

First, I second Doug's suggestion. Should you wish to use something with stats, however, I suggest Ambush Seaweed. Ambush Seaweed is like an Ambush Vine, but made of seaweed. (MM2 pg 204, some adjustments maybe required.)

 

[Truename]

For my group, I've been constantly emphasizing that "every situation can be overcome; not all can be overcome by fighting." I used to remind them of this every few games, while slowly taking the gloves off... doing things like allowing one encounter to bleed into another, having the baddies focus fire on a "soft" target, and so forth. I combine this with rolling dice in the open and never fudging. (I'll accelerate encounters that are a foregone conclusion, though.)

I think what really brought the point home, though, was when two PCs died at the end of the Scales of War adventure "Siege of Bordrin's Watch." In the next adventure, they faced a bunch of nasty critters and chose to run rather than stick around, although theoretically, they could have won. Recently, I put them in a situation where they were surrounded by over 20 guards... it was really obvious that fighting wasn't an option, and they didn't try.

So now the stage is set for the next adventure, which is going to be more sandbox-like, and the gloves are coming all the way off... every encounter on its own will be within the level guidelines, but the monsters will do their best to bring in reinforcements that could well overwhelm the party.

So that's how I'm doing it--I started out with reminders, and then gradually increased the possibility of overwhelming odds, as well as simple situations where it's obvious that fighting isn't an option.

Oh, and finally, I always have a "TPK plan" in the back of my mind for how the party will get rescued (or imprisoned, or whatever) if they do bite it. So far, they've always managed to pull it off, if only barely.

 

[tomBitonti]

Encounter Prep ...

I think this is an OK idea ... but I have to say that the encounter design works strong against this sort of decision making.

As long as players are looking ahead: Scouting, sizing up their enemies, sizing up the terrain, and generally getting as much say as possible in selecting who, when, and where they have fights, then choosing to back away from a disadvantageous fight is perfectly reasonable.

Stuff that makes this harder:

*) An assumption of having a number of well tuned encounters.

*) Poor mechanics for sizing up the opponents, and for bluffing.

*) Encounters which are isolated from the rest of the world ("open door", "roll initiative").

*) Opponents that aren't themselves sizing up their opponents, and who won't run away if they find themselves at a disadvantage.

Thx!

 

[Asmor]

You need to send them against someone or something so big and powerful that it can easily kill them... But doesn't want to.