Particle_Man
Explorer
Orcus?
Hubris 4e
- Thread starter bmadden
- Start date
Jan van Leyden
Adventurer
How does your group usually work in a combat? Are they in Happy Slaughtering Mode until the first character goes down dying or do they keep careful track of their ressources that diminishing them might trigger their flight?
In the first case, you need some signal that something very bad is gonna happen and soon. Maybe an opponent with lots of interrupt powers, making the PC's favourite attacks worthless. Players are used to see hits from at-will powers having no spectacluar effect, but if their encounter and daily show no result, it may get them thinking.
In the second case, you might use monsters which steal ressources, like Healing Surges. Make it clear in the very first rounds of combat what the opponents can do.
4e's freeform apporach to monster design is a big help for both solutions. Your going fo a "What's this?" effect, so don't bother to actually create the opponents with all crunchy details. Just plan several in-game effects for them and improvise the show.
Oh, one more idea: create a troll-like monster, which tends to lose a limb when being hit. A few rounds later all these cut-off limbs turn into complete monsters. The more the players fight, the more hopeless their fight becomes. Design a solution for this encounter, but make it next to impossible for the players to find this solution. After their flight they might research this problem and find the solution.
In the first case, you need some signal that something very bad is gonna happen and soon. Maybe an opponent with lots of interrupt powers, making the PC's favourite attacks worthless. Players are used to see hits from at-will powers having no spectacluar effect, but if their encounter and daily show no result, it may get them thinking.
In the second case, you might use monsters which steal ressources, like Healing Surges. Make it clear in the very first rounds of combat what the opponents can do.
4e's freeform apporach to monster design is a big help for both solutions. Your going fo a "What's this?" effect, so don't bother to actually create the opponents with all crunchy details. Just plan several in-game effects for them and improvise the show.
Oh, one more idea: create a troll-like monster, which tends to lose a limb when being hit. A few rounds later all these cut-off limbs turn into complete monsters. The more the players fight, the more hopeless their fight becomes. Design a solution for this encounter, but make it next to impossible for the players to find this solution. After their flight they might research this problem and find the solution.
RodneyThompson
Explorer
Aside from making sure you're doing this for the right reasons ("I want to encourage them to think about more tactics than killing everything" is probably OK, but I'd be a bit iffy if your motive is "I want to teach them a lesson in humility"), the trick to this kind of encounter is twofold. First, you must give them an obvious escape route and a chance to escape. The players need to know that there is a way out, should they need it, and it should be obvious. Having them surrounded on all sides or backed against the wall will make them desperate. The second key component is to wear the party down gradually, as opposed to overwhelming them right out of the gate. Let them sate their thirst for blood, as it were, for a few rounds, before the first wave of reinforcements arrives. As the fight wears on, resources get depleted, and over time the players should realize that their ability to diminish the enemies' resources are likewise diminishing as rounds pass. Also, tying this back into the first part of it, make sure there is good distance (both physical and time-wise) between waves of bad guys, allowing the players a chance to escape between waves of enemies.
At least, that's how these things work best in my experiences. YMMV.
Edit: I just read your question a bit more closely, and one thing I'd like to point out is that my advice above is contingent on letting the heroes do SOME fighting before they run. I highly encourage this approach, as it gives the players a chance to make a dent in the enemy, release any pent-up aggression, and showcase their combat prowess, at least a little bit. I find that at least allowing them a chance to make a fight of it, if only for a few rounds, will help prevent players from making more rash decisions in the future because they are itching for a fight.
At least, that's how these things work best in my experiences. YMMV.
Edit: I just read your question a bit more closely, and one thing I'd like to point out is that my advice above is contingent on letting the heroes do SOME fighting before they run. I highly encourage this approach, as it gives the players a chance to make a dent in the enemy, release any pent-up aggression, and showcase their combat prowess, at least a little bit. I find that at least allowing them a chance to make a fight of it, if only for a few rounds, will help prevent players from making more rash decisions in the future because they are itching for a fight.
JustKim
First Post
This was a monster in Al-qadim if I remember right, I believe the name started with a Z. The writeup for it might provide some ideas.
cockatrice, basalisks, medusa, and other petrification inducing monsters -- sure, you can have all the hit points in the world. But fail three saves in a row and you're out.
Heck, a handful of them is scarey in their own right, but imagine a herd (?) of roaming cockatrice on an island that stampede towards the PCs...
There are some similar other monsters that impose a basic 'death' effect after three failed saves regardless of hit points. -- I think I just read a monster in mm2 that would make a target unconcious after 3 failed saves (or else i'm just imagining it !
) but anyway, you get the idea ...
--
another idea, maybe the PCs have to escort someone (a VIP, a mother/child/refugee/escapee/etc) and keep him safe. Staying for a fight might seem easy for them but can they do it and keep the escort safe?
Heck, a handful of them is scarey in their own right, but imagine a herd (?) of roaming cockatrice on an island that stampede towards the PCs...
There are some similar other monsters that impose a basic 'death' effect after three failed saves regardless of hit points. -- I think I just read a monster in mm2 that would make a target unconcious after 3 failed saves (or else i'm just imagining it !
) but anyway, you get the idea ...--
another idea, maybe the PCs have to escort someone (a VIP, a mother/child/refugee/escapee/etc) and keep him safe. Staying for a fight might seem easy for them but can they do it and keep the escort safe?
samursus
Explorer
I did this with a BECMI group years ago...they were around 9th level and were getting pretty out of control (my fault as DM).
They never EVER thought of running away or surrendering. So to start off the next campaign (Seven Rods type dealie) I had them come across Bugbears excavating a chest ...my thoughts were for them to grab the chest and run....opeing it later to find the scroll that starts the arc. I put a LOT of Bugbears there to encourage them to hit and run...
They didn't take the hint. So they eventually killed them all... just to see a veritable ARMY of reinforcements come over the rise. Still... they decided to try and take them out... I knew they couldn't win....and would die..so instead I had them captured and stripped of all their gear. They were put in cells and made to understand they were soon to be the main course. I asked them what were they going to do. Well, they came up with all kinds on unfeasable plans.... negelecting to search their cell for the secret escape tunnel I put in. So they were eaten...
I can now see that there were MANY better ways for me to have presented to them that they needed to sometimes run away, and that giving them only 1 option in the cells to live was a bit draconian. But I was young and foolish, and they were a bit thick
They never EVER thought of running away or surrendering. So to start off the next campaign (Seven Rods type dealie) I had them come across Bugbears excavating a chest ...my thoughts were for them to grab the chest and run....opeing it later to find the scroll that starts the arc. I put a LOT of Bugbears there to encourage them to hit and run...
They didn't take the hint. So they eventually killed them all... just to see a veritable ARMY of reinforcements come over the rise. Still... they decided to try and take them out... I knew they couldn't win....and would die..so instead I had them captured and stripped of all their gear. They were put in cells and made to understand they were soon to be the main course. I asked them what were they going to do. Well, they came up with all kinds on unfeasable plans.... negelecting to search their cell for the secret escape tunnel I put in. So they were eaten...
I can now see that there were MANY better ways for me to have presented to them that they needed to sometimes run away, and that giving them only 1 option in the cells to live was a bit draconian. But I was young and foolish, and they were a bit thick
ObsidianCrane
First Post
You are near a desert... MM2 supplies quite a few monsters traditionally associated with desert settings that should (seeing as they are paragon tier) be able to force the party to retreat.
Better some of them a monsters traditionally associated with masters (ie having a master) and so the PCs might be forced to wonder who sent it to attack them.
Better some of them a monsters traditionally associated with masters (ie having a master) and so the PCs might be forced to wonder who sent it to attack them.
Dyson Logos
Hero
That really depends on the assumptions of the game and setting, doesn't it?
In most of our games, we are adventurers, and picking and choosing our fights is the job description. If we strode boldly into every potential battle we've run into, we would all have died ages ago.
