Huge Balor's reach with whip

[mvincent]

A whip isn't a reach weapon

A balor's whip doesn't appear to be a standard whip.

comparing the effects on size to it and that of reach weapons doesn't work.

A normal whip has more reach than a reach weapon, but for huge (or larger) creatures you believe it should have less?

 

[prospero63]

Having a huge whip give less reach than say, a huge spiked chain doesn't make much sense (and goes against precedence).

Besides, I don't believe a balor's whip is treated as a "normal" whip anyway, i.e. it can entangle people, it probably still does damage to armored opponents, and it is described as "a long, flexible weapon with many tails tipped with hooks, spikes, and balls. The weapon deals bludgeoning and slashing damage".

At huge size, I would have to say it would have similar reach to a huge spiked chain: 30'. This would seem to fit precedence

How are you concluding that a huge spiked chain has more reach?

Reach (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm):
Medium 5 ft.
Large 10 ft
Huge 15 ft
Gargantuan 20 ft
Colossal 30 ft

Medium Whip - 15ft reach (per description)
Medium Chain - 10ft reach (per description)
Large Whip - 20ft (Balor is example, but taking a medium to large conversion of 5ft, plus the base of 15ft per whip description matches as well)
Large Chain - 15ft (increase of reach 5ft for medium to large)
Huge Whip - 25ft (increase of reach 5ft for large to huge)
Huge Chain - 20ft (increase of reach 5ft for large to huge)
Gargantuan Whip - 30ft (increase of reach 5ft for huge to gargantuan)
Gargantuan Chain - 25ft (increase of reach 5ft for huge to gargantuan)
Colossal Whip - 35ft (increase of reach 5ft for gargantuan to colossal)
Colossal Chain - 30ft (increase of reach 5ft for gargantuan to colossal)

Now, I know (or think I know) where folks are going to try to go with this.

Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can’t strike at their natural reach or less

But I would contend, as evidenced by the above and by the only example I can find of a book large creature with a whip, that the above chart plays out appropriately. However, if you want to be a rules lawyer, fine. Then the next chart is the RAW (due to the fact that a medium whip has a defined reach in the description and the natural reach increase is defined in the aforementioned chart, and further is supported by an SRD creature that proves out the logic) and anything else is really a house rule.

Medium Whip - 15ft reach (per description)
Medium Chain - 10ft reach (double natural reach)
Large Whip - 20ft (Balor is example, but taking a medium to large conversion of 5ft, plus the base of 15ft per whip description matches as well)
Large Chain - 20ft (double natural reach)
Huge Whip - 25ft (increase of reach 5ft for large to huge)
Huge Chain - 30ft (double natural reach)
Gargantuan Whip - 30ft (increase of reach 5ft for huge to gargantuan)
Gargantuan Chain - 40ft (double natural reach)
Colossal Whip - 35ft (increase of reach 5ft for gargantuan to colossal)
Colossal Chain - 60ft (double natural reach)

Me? Personally? I find the prior to be more consistent, with game examples that support that use (Balor's whip being a prime example). I find the latter to be absolutely RAW. Doesn't mean a whip can't be different. But that difference is the difference between RAW and house rules, and should be categorized accordingly.

 

[mvincent]

How are you concluding that a huge spiked chain has more reach?

By the rules, a huge creature wielding an appropriately size reach weapon has a 30' reach. To clarify: are you surprised that I might be following those rules? Does anyone here (other than prospero) believe that this is not what the rules intend?

I would contend, as evidenced by the above and by the only example I can find of a book large creature with a whip, that the above chart plays out appropriately.

The conclusion does not seem warranted (especially since it contradicts the rules). As mentioned, the Balor's whip is pretty atypical (and using the Balor's example to define how far reach weapons reach seems like odd reasoning).

Instead, a suitable example might be something like the Noble Salamander (here). It is large (and not "long", like a centaur) and is wielding a reach weapon.

 

[frankthedm]

The large Balor should have had 30' reach with its whip.
The huge Balor should have 45' reach with its whip.

Since the Balor's whip seems a touch different from a normal whip, I'm willing to say it has the reach of a normal reach weapon. 20' at large, 30' at huge.

 

[prospero63]

By the rules, a huge creature wielding an appropriately size reach weapon has a 30' reach. To clarify: are you surprised that I might be following those rules? Does anyone here (other than prospero) believe that this is not what the rules intend?

The conclusion does not seem warranted (especially since it contradicts the rules). As mentioned, the Balor's whip is pretty atypical (and using the Balor's example to define how far reach weapons reach seems like odd reasoning).

The Balor's whip is no more atypical than a normal whip that states a 15' reach for a medium sized creature.

Instead, a suitable example might be something like the Noble Salamander (here). It is large (and not "long", like a centaur) and is wielding a reach weapon.

It's not an instead. As I mentioned, the whip has the same outside confirmation as the large weapon does. I'm sorry that the RAW don't support a whip in a larger than medium sized creature getting double natural reach, but that's the way it is. House rule it, but at least acknowledge that it's a house rule, not RAW. I have no problem with saying that the initial chart I posted house rules the larger than medium sized reach weapons.

Didn't Reynolds write half the rules? You've seen the fallout, what is *your* take?

 

[prospero63]

Oh, and one more chart for the third method

Medium Whip - 15ft reach (per description)
Medium Chain - 10ft reach (double natural reach)
Large Whip - 30ft (based on medium being triple natural reach)
Large Chain - 20ft (double natural reach)
Huge Whip - 45ft (based on medium being triple natural reach)
Huge Chain - 30ft (double natural reach)
Gargantuan Whip - 60ft (based on medium being triple natural reach)
Gargantuan Chain - 40ft (double natural reach)
Colossal Whip - 90ft (based on medium being triple natural reach)
Colossal Chain - 60ft (double natural reach)

Obviously, this requires treating a Balor's whip as a one off weapon (similar to how a medium creature with a whip is 15 instead of the normal double natural reach). Any other large creature with a whip gets 30ft of reach.

 

[kreynolds]

Didn't Reynolds write half the rules?

No, just bad terminology on my part. Instead of saying "the whip triples that distance", I should have said "the whip effectively triples that distance".

That is not to say that I am not interested in non-RAW. Definately interested in interpretation.

 

[prospero63]

No, just bad terminology on my part. Instead of saying "the whip triples that distance", I should have said "the whip effectively triples that distance".

That is not to say that I am not interested in non-RAW. Definately interested in interpretation.

Cool. I think, maybe, we have all three methods lined out. And to be perfectly honest, now that I have done that, I will probably change my house rules to the last category, and will house rule the Balor's whip accordingly... including for a normal run of the mill large Balor.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Didn't Reynolds write half the rules?

Are you confusing kreynolds with Sean K Reynolds, perhaps?

-Hyp.

 

[chriton227]

Are you confusing kreynolds with Sean K Reynolds, perhaps?

-Hyp.

Given that kreynolds sig is "~Sean", that really isn't that big of a stretch.

EDIT: Although Google-fu shows that it would be an incorrect stretch.
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=25795