Human Monks can take Improved Natural Attack?

[FireLance]

A prerequisite is not an effect, so by a more careful reading, you are not actually a dwarf, and as such, issues arise. I was reading "all spells and effects" as "for all intents and purposes," when it doesn't say that.

So, your position is that a human who is treated as a dwarf for the purpose of all spells and effects will not get the additional benefits when he uses a dwarven thrower?

 

[moritheil]

So, your position is that a human who is treated as a dwarf for the purpose of all spells and effects will not get the additional benefits when he uses a dwarven thrower?

My position is that, by a literal reading, if the exact text wording is "for all spells and effects," then, absent an explicit statement that he can gain those benefits, he will not.

Of course, I would house rule it otherwise, as a DM, because of what I think of the INTENT of the rules, but by a LITERAL reading of the rules, he does not appear to qualify.

This is, of course, ASSUMING that using the dwarven thrower is considered neither a spell nor an effect.

 

[Pinotage]

When bad writers create rules and situations, literalism is the only resort. Otherwise you don't have "What do the rules say?" discussions, but rather, "What is a sane, logical way to run my game?"

I never said I was against literalism. I just said that I was having to think carefully to get my head around all the arguments.

Pinotage

 

[FireLance]

This is, of course, ASSUMING that using the dwarven thrower is considered neither a spell nor an effect.

I'm not going to argue that it is a spell, but isn't this portion of the magic item description "In the hands of a dwarf, the warhammer gains an additional +1 enhancement bonus (for a total enhancement bonus of +3) and gains the returning special ability" an effect? If not, why not?

 

[moritheil]

I'm not going to argue that it is a spell, but isn't this portion of the magic item description "In the hands of a dwarf, the warhammer gains an additional +1 enhancement bonus (for a total enhancement bonus of +3) and gains the returning special ability" an effect? If not, why not?

Ah, that's what I asked you above. It really depends on your answer to whether or not "in the hands of a dwarf" is an effect, because that's the part that concerns qualification.

 

[FireLance]

Ah, that's what I asked you above. It really depends on your answer to whether or not "in the hands of a dwarf" is an effect, because that's the part that concerns qualification.

Well, my answer is yes, it is an effect. Or rather, the whole portion of the magic item description "In the hands of a dwarf, the warhammer gains an additional +1 enhancement bonus (for a total enhancement bonus of +3) and gains the returning special ability." is an effect. Determining whether or not the wielder is a dwarf is an integral part of the effect. If yes, he gets the benefit. If no, he does not.

 

[Hypersmurf]

However, there seems to be some inconsistency about what it means to have orc or human blood, or the orc or human subtype, when it comes to qualifying for feats and prestige classes.

Yeah... the RoD sidebar says that a half-elf qualifies for elf-only PrCs... but again, the Core Rules example of such a class (Arcane Archer) has a requirement of 'Elf or Half-Elf'... as do the Champion of Corellon and the Wildrunner in RotW...

Can a Half-Elf take Elf substitution levels as well as Half-Elf substitution levels?

Regarding the Dwarven Thrower - one of the examples given in the PHB of a benefit of Elf Blood is the ability to use 'magic items that are only usable by elves', so I would assume that a template that caused a character to be 'considered a dwarf for all effects related to race' would allow the use of a Dwarven Thrower.

-Hyp.

 

[moritheil]

Well, my answer is yes, it is an effect. Or rather, the whole portion of the magic item description "In the hands of a dwarf, the warhammer gains an additional +1 enhancement bonus (for a total enhancement bonus of +3) and gains the returning special ability." is an effect. Determining whether or not the wielder is a dwarf is an integral part of the effect. If yes, he gets the benefit. If no, he does not.

AHA! Determining that is an integral part of the EFFECT, but the EFFECT is not an integral part of the DETERMINING. So by a very literal (and admittedly pedantic) reading, no, the DETERMINING is not an effect, and as such, he is not a dwarf for the purposes of the determining. Of course, we're splitting hairs, but this is how I read the rules taken literally.

 

[moritheil]

Regarding the Dwarven Thrower - one of the examples given in the PHB of a benefit of Elf Blood is the ability to use 'magic items that are only usable by elves', so I would assume that a template that caused a character to be 'considered a dwarf for all effects related to race' would allow the use of a Dwarven Thrower.

-Hyp.

She did not say it was a template that allowed the use of magic items only usable by dwarves, just that it was an arbitrary ability that allowed someone to be considered a dwarf for 'all spells and effects.' The parallel is therefore imperfect.

 

[Pielorinho]

MOderator's Notes:
Anubis, the idea behind your three-day vacation was that you'd have a chance to cool down and review board rules. If three days wasn't enough, we're happy to make this vacation longer.

Everyone else, I'd appreciate it if you'd edit his comments out of your posts where you responded to them. I don't want this thread going down in flames, too.

Daniel