Human Monks can take Improved Natural Attack?

[Scion]

It doesn't prove they aren't either. I'll await you answer to my earlier post, but I've yet to see an argument that prooves that feats aren't effects. And yes, I've seen the 'we don't have to prove it' but I really want to see a proof here that they are not to be considered effects.

Definately.

I would like to see a point by point proof of how a feat is not an effect as well.

Until then, the rules quote that says feats are effects rules over all.

 

[glass]

Huh? Did you state that backwards from your position? Did you not quote the defintion of "effect" and then state that a feat fits that defintion, or did I read that wrong?

You read it wrong. I have consistantly stated that I do not believe a feat is an effect, although I have also noted that even if it is, it does not necesarily allowa monk to take INA.

P.S.: A feat is the result of a player decision made when the PC levels up. Since it is "something brought about by a cause or agent; a result." it is an effect. The "cause or agent" is either leveling up or the player's decision (or PC's decision, if you want to think about it that way).

Gaining a feat in the abstract sense is an effect of leveling up. A specific feat is not: they still exist as concepts that can be discussed and options that can potentially be slected later even if the are not selected, which preculdes their being and effect of leveling up or selection.



glass.

 

[Artoomis]

..Gaining a feat in the abstract sense is an effect of leveling up. A specific feat is not: they still exist as concepts that can be discussed and options that can potentially be slected later even if the are not selected, which preculdes their being and effect of leveling up or selection.

glass.

You lost me there. How can gaining a feat be an effect of leveling up but a specific feat not be an effect of leveling up? I don't mind if they are considered an effect of leveling up plus making certain decisions - that's still an "effect" per the dictionary definition of an "effect."

 

[Dimwhit]

Gaining a feat in the abstract sense is an effect of leveling up. A specific feat is not: they still exist as concepts that can be discussed and options that can potentially be slected later even if the are not selected, which preculdes their being and effect of leveling up or selection.

Uh, no. Specific feats are results of levels. We've illustrated this many times. A character gains experience, and at some point (designated as gaining a level) that character gains a SPECIFIC ability (natural weapon does more damage, he can now craft wands, he can strike for more power at the expense of accuracy, etc.).

Specific feats, whatever is chosen, are the direct results of gaining experience and level. Ergo, the are the effect of that level gain.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Uh, no. Specific feats are results of levels. We've illustrated this many times. A character gains experience, and at some point (designated as gaining a level) that character gains a SPECIFIC ability (natural weapon does more damage, he can now craft wands, he can strike for more power at the expense of accuracy, etc.).

Specific feats, whatever is chosen, are the direct results of gaining experience and level. Ergo, the are the effect of that level gain.

And what happens when you gain a feat not as part of gaining experience? Gaining INA is not solely part of levelling up, so you can't categorically state it as an effect of levelling up.

 

[Dimwhit]

And what happens when you gain a feat not as part of gaining experience? Gaining INA is not solely part of levelling up, so you can't categorically state it as an effect of levelling up.

How else would you gain a feat?

 

[Artoomis]

And what happens when you gain a feat not as part of gaining experience? Gaining INA is not solely part of levelling up, so you can't categorically state it as an effect of levelling up.

Okay, then, what IS gaining INA a result of, if it is not leveling up and associated decisions?

When do you gain a feat not as part of gaining experience?

Edit: It does not really matter what a feat is the result of - if it is the result of ANYTHING then it is an effect per the dictionary definition.

 

[Scion]

It does not really matter what a feat is the result of - if it is the result of ANYTHING then it is an effect per the dictionary definition.

Exactly.

 

[Dimwhit]

Artoomis and Scion...if we form an alliance, then as soon as we win this challenge, we can vote one of the others off, right?

 

[Artoomis]

Artoomis and Scion...if we form an alliance, then as soon as we win this challenge, we can vote one of the others off, right?

You've been watching too much TV.