Human Monks can take Improved Natural Attack?

[Scion]

The benefit of the feat provides the bonus.

No, the 'feat' provides the bonus. The bonus it provides is listed under the benefits section of the feat.

The feat provides the bonus, the feat 'is' the bonus.

The Benefit of Power Critical provides the bonus. The Prerequisites don't. The Normal section doesn't.

Completely unimportant. All of them make up the feat, they are the feat.

If you have a cheeseburger with various components it is cheeseburger type X. You cannot say that the burger part is the cheeseburger, it isnt, it is merely one of the components making up the cheeseburger.

Asking what benefits the prereqs provide simply has no meaning. The 'feat' provides the benefit, and the prereqs are part of the feat, so the prereqs in turn are part of the benefit, which is the feat.

The effects of the feat stack. The feat is not a numeric quantity - it doesn't 'stack' because there's no way to add feats together, only the effects of feats.

So you are saying that I cannot say that I have improved critical 3 times and so get a bonus of +12? It sounds to me that one means the other. They are saying 'exactly' the same thing.

The effects of the feat stack. The feat itself 'is' the effect. The feats stack.

All of these are saying exactly the same thing.


I still havent seen you provide anything saying the opposite of the quotes that I have provided.

Merely some suppositions which do not make any actual sense when asked. The questions literally have no meaning because the questions themselves are meaningles.

It's not accurate to say "When using a Hammer of Thunderbolts, Gauntlets of Ogre Power stack with a Belt of Giant Strength". It's accurate to say "When using a Hammer of Thunderbolts, the bonus from Gauntlets of Ogre Power stacks with the bonus from a Belt of Giant Strength".

You are talking about items again. We are discussing two completely seperate types of rules.

It is like one person is talking about aoo rules and someone else comes in and says that is all wrong because fireball does fire damage.

How much fire damage does failing a concentration check do anyway? Generally speaking, this question is completely nonsensical, and it is the same sort of thing that asking what the benefit of a prereq is, there is simply no basis to ask the question.

Completely orthogonal basis sets.

 

[Dimwhit]

Hyp, I don't agree that the feat grants the benefit. It's not like a character goes to a store, buys the feat in the form of a notorized paper, and that note grants benefit. The character gains experience, and after a certain point has a new ability. It's called a feat because, well, you gotta call it something.

 

[Scion]

Hyp, I don't agree that the feat grants the benefit. It's not like a character goes to a store, buys the feat in the form of a notorized paper, and that note grants benefit. The character gains experience, and after a certain point has a new ability. It's called a feat because, well, you gotta call it something.

Yes.

It isnt an 'item' called 'Feat X', it is a benefit in a package that is called 'Feat X' for ease of use.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If you take away something from the feat it is no longer the feat, it may not even be a feat any longer.

The Elusive Target feat takes something away from the Power Attack feat - the bonus to damage. The Power Attack feat is still 'the feat', and is certainly still 'a feat'. The effect of the Power Attack feat is altered in relation to the opponent with Elusive Target, but the feat is still Power Attack; the feat is the same, but the effect of the feat is different.

-Hyp.

 

[Scion]

That is not true, the feat allows the person to ignore the benefit of another feat, not taking away the ability of some other feat. They could still use the feat just fine against someone who does not have ellusive target and is not placing dodge on them.

The feat is worded in a way to make it simple, which is nice.

Unless you feel that a +1 sword takes away the benefit of the dodge feat?

Nothing about elusive target changes power attack in any way for the person with the feat (except their choice about how much of it to use, but that is outside of the feat itself).

But of course none of this has anything to do with my statement. If you take the power attack feat and modify it so that it requires dex 13+ instead of str 13+ it is now a completely different feat. It is no longer 'power attack' anymore.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So you are saying that I cannot say that I have improved critical 3 times and so get a bonus of +12?

Absolutely, you can! You have the feat three times, and the effects of the feats stack!

You are talking about items again.

I'm talking about the difference between "X stacks" and "the effect of X stacks".

The effect of Gauntlets of Ogre Power is a +2 enhancement bonus to Str. Gauntlets of Ogre Power are not a +2 enhancement bonus to Str.

The effect of Power Critical is a bonus to attack rolls to confirm a crit. Power Critical is not a bonus to attack rolls to confirm a crit.

A bonus can stack. A feat cannot.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But of course none of this has anything to do with my statement. If you take the power attack feat and modify it so that it requires dex 13+ instead of str 13+ it is now a completely different feat. It is no longer 'power attack' anymore.

True. But neither does that mean that "Str 13+" is Power Attack.

Just because changing "Str 13+" changes Power Attack doesn't mean that Power Attack is the prerequisite.

Similarly, just because changing the effect of the feat would change Power Attack doesn't mean that the feat is the effect.

-Hyp.

 

[Scion]

Absolutely, you can! You have the feat three times, and the effects of the feats stack!

Exactly, the feats stack.

I'm talking about the difference between "X stacks" and "the effect of X stacks".

The effect of Gauntlets of Ogre Power is a +2 enhancement bonus to Str. Gauntlets of Ogre Power are not a +2 enhancement bonus to Str.

And so the when useing the other item the ehancement bonus of the gauntlets stack with the enhancement bonus of the belt stack.

Normally they would not, because they have the same type of name, but the other item overrides that rule.

Still though, the item 'does' call out the gauntlets and the belt specificaly. You cant use a headband of str (I cant find the wording of the item, so I am going from memory) and expect it to do anything, it has a specific call.

The effect of Power Critical is a bonus to attack rolls to confirm a crit. Power Critical is not a bonus to attack rolls to confirm a crit.

Power critical is indeed the bonus. When you have power critical you get +4 to specific rolls.

Which is exactly the same as having a 14 str and getting the +2 modifier. One does not cause the other, they are both two ways of expressing exactly the same thing (the fact that d&d rounds down fractions so that 15 is not +2.5 is unimportant to this discussion however).

A bonus can stack. A feat cannot.

Sure they can, and they do.

Saying that the effects of a feat stack is exactly the same as saying that the feats stack.

The feat is the effect, the effect is the feat, there is no seperation.

If you have feat X 3 times you know exactly what that means, you get benefit Y 3 times (assuming that the feats stack of course, as not all do).

 

[Artoomis]

I'm really enjoying this debate. The only thing that frustrates me is that I cannot move Hyp off of his position.

Ah, well. Perhaps I'll think of some other way of stating my argument that will sway him. I doubt it, but that probably won't prevent me from trying.

I do appreciate that Hyp at least does see that the rule is ambiguous because two sides have pretty strong positions and both are based upon a reasonable reading of the RAW (even if both sides claim the other side is reading it incorrectly). I'm not putting words in your mouth, am I Hyp?

 

[Scion]

True. But neither does that mean that "Str 13+" is Power Attack.

Exactly! which is why the question some people have been asking is meaningless. They are asking a question that simply has no basis in reality.

The prereq is 'part of' the feat, it is not 'the feat'.

Just because changing "Str 13+" changes Power Attack doesn't mean that Power Attack is the prerequisite.

Umm.. no, power attack is the feat. One is not the other. One is a part of the other.

Similarly, just because changing the effect of the feat would change Power Attack doesn't mean that the feat is the effect.

No, it doesnt.

But then I am not even sure what you are argueing here.

I have shown from a different part of the rules that feats are effects, so claiming that changing power attack doesnt mean that the feat is an effect seems again to be stating nothing.