Hustle + Spring Attack= Problem

[BSF]

I cannot find any way to parse it and end up with a move-full attack-move using Spring Attack and Hustle. A single attack? Sure. But not a full attack.

Spring attack allows a lightly encumbered/armored human to do a 30' move with an attack anywhere along that path, without drawing an AOO from the creature you attack.

Adding Hustle just allows an additional move action before or after that sequence. .

Now you could do a move with the hustle and then a full attack. Or a full attack and then a hustle move. But in neither case do you need Spring Attack. In fact, Spring Attack won't provide any benefit in this case since you aren't attacking during your move.

 

[sidomar]

Nice try on the player's part, but it doesn't work. Why?

Two reasons:

1. Spring Attack doesn't allow this. Specifically, the Spring Attack feat only works when using the Attack action, which is a standard action. Because of this, it cannot be combined with a Full Attack (a Full-round action).

2. Hustle doesn't allow it. It specifically gives you one additional Move action on your turn. It does not grant any other benefits, and in fact specifically mentions full-attacking and moving away as still provoking AoOs:

I may be naive, but here is how I read the descriptions in the PHB and XPH:

1. A player typically gets 1 move and 1 standard action per round, 2 move actions, OR 1 full round action.

2. Spring Attack description reads:

"When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate."

It specifies 'attack action' because a player typically gets a standard action with their move - they do not get a full round action.

3. Hustle's power description reads:

"You gain an additional move action in the current round. Taking a full round’s worth of attacks and then using this power to move away from your foe does provoke attacks of opportunity."

The second sentence is added because an AoO is provoked when leaving a threatened square- Hustle does not negate this.

MY TWO CENTS (worth only 1 cent in today's market): Neither description takes the other into consideration. Spring Attack allows the player to split their move before AND after their action for the round. Hustle adds an additional move action in the round, allowing for a move and a full attack action. I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive?

Adding Hustle just allows an additional move action before or after that sequence.

The power description doesn't indicate "before or after" - it simply states additional move action.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Neither description takes the other into consideration. Spring Attack allows the player to split their move before AND after their action for the round. Hustle adds an additional move action in the round, allowing for a move and a full attack action. I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive?

1. They don't take each other into consideration because they do not interact.
2. Spring Attack lets you use part of a single move action before and after a standard action. That's it.
3. Hustle gives you another move action. Since actions are not simultaneous with other actions (except in the case where they are specifically allowed to overlap, like Spring Attack), your Hustle move action must take place either before or after your "normal" move / standard routine.

Thus, you could move 30' forward, then Spring Attack 15' forward, attack, and Spring Attack 15' back.

You cannot Spring Attack 15' forward, Full Attack, and Spring Attack 15' back.

 

[jabberwocky]

...
2. Spring Attack description reads:

"When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate."

It specifies 'attack action' because a player typically gets a standard action with their move - they do not get a full round action.

I think this is where the confusion is coming from. Spring Attack is very specific about allowing an attack action, and nothing else. If the feat was meant to allow you to place your normal action in the center of a move, they would have specified standard action, or better yet, 'the remainder of your round's actions' or something similar. But since they specifically call out Spring Attack as allowing an attack action (a subset of standard action), you can't fit anymore than that single attack action into a spring attack.

 

[undeaddan]

Grrr

But here's the freakin problem... In order to get the interpretation that the majority of you are expousing we have to read "Spring Attack" like a freakin' lawyer.

How hard would it have been for WotC to, I dunno, have italicized words when referring to a specific game term? Or maybe included something in hustle saying that it can't be used with spring attack. Or maybe said something in Spring Attack about allowing 1 attack only.

I'm not saying any of you are wrong and I would prefer to not have one of my PCs have the ability to do as I described above, but I feel the rationalization that I have to go to is so horribly picky and rules lawyery that I feel a bit unclean.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Nail]

... but I feel the rationalization that I have to go to is so horribly picky and rules lawyery that I feel a bit unclean.

Welcome to the Rules forum.



But seriously: 3.5e D&D requires you to read the text. And then (here's the tricky part) apply what you've read in other places to the current situation. 3.5e D&D rarely (if ever!) spells out all of the interactions all of the time. Just imagine the size of the PH if it did!

In this case, the Spring Attack feat allows an attack action. That's different from a full-round attack - big time. So, regardless of what other monkey-business the player tries to pull, a Spring Attack can't use a full-round attack.

End of story, really. And hey: this one's simple. Just try parsing the language for the Polymorph spell. Yoowsa........

 

[Piratecat]

As someone who plays a psi warrior who has hustle I'll agree that the rules interpretation explained here is absolutely correct. In addition, with spring attack you have to move-attack-move in order to use the feat, and the hustle additional move action doesn't count as part of that.

You don't really need to feel like a hair-splitting rules lawyer to rule that the player's trick of full attacking doesn't work, either. If it seems to good to be true, it probably is.

 

[Sarhuin]

Additional:

What if said player also had Haste active? Would that allow for a "move"(hustle) "full attack"(Regular action) "move" (Haste)? This would, of course, still provoke AOO's because SA isn't being used.

As far as Spring attack stating "when using the attack action" seems pretty specific. Whether or not it was intended to be so specific is anyone's speculation. Perhaps looking at 'shot on the run' would give more insight on the problem:

From the SRD:
"Benefit: When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed."

I read that to mean one arrow. . . I think?

To be fair, I did NOT find any reference to "Attack action" and "Full Attack action". That is to say, no specific definition of each.

Action types with definitions are limited to:

"Standard Action", "Move Action", "Full Round Action", "Free Action", and "No Action".

Under "Standard Action" it lists:
Attack (Melee) - which is singular

and under "Full Round Action" it lists:
"Full Attack"

So an argument could be made that "attack action" can refer to any action including an attack. Though there is much to support otherwise as well.

All that being said, if the feat can be interpreted in such a way that it would allow a full attack. . . then you wouldn't need hustle to make a full attack during spring attack, would you? You would just move 15 feet, make "an attack action" as a full attack, then move 15 more feet. All hustle is really letting you do is move farther.

Just my observations =)

~S

 

[jabberwocky]

To be fair, I did NOT find any reference to "Attack action" and "Full Attack action". That is to say, no specific definition of each.

~S

Well if you look at the table:actions in combat, you'll see that the action types (standard, fullround, move, etc) are broken down further. Under standard we see attack(melee), attack (ranged), and a bunch of others. This seems to be pretty clear that an attack is an action, one that is part of the set that comprises standard actions. So when a feat calls out attack action, that is significantly different than a full-attack action, and also means that you can't use spring attack to take the 'cast a spell' action in the middle of your move, for example, even though casting a spell is part of the same set of actions as the attack action.

 

[Piratecat]

Right, shot on the run only allows a single arrow to be fired.