Hydra question (2003 thread)

[Artoomis]

...In any event, it's pretty clear that the CR would be wildly inappropriate for ALL hydras if that were the case. A CR "11" 12 headed hydra would deal an average of 108 points of damage per opportunity against AC 26. Even 11th level characters can't take that. And with Fast Healing 22, PCs won't make much headway doing anything other than going for the heads.

I don't think so. What's clear is that AoO's should be avoided - and cutting off a head draws an AoO. Clearly, attacking this creature in melee is a mistake, unless you have Improved Sunder to avoid the AoO.

A 12-headed, CR 13 hydra has 129 HP. A 13th-level party could easily take this creature down with magic using 1/4 or less of its assets, appropriate for a CR 13 creature.

I think each head acts pretty much independently, which is why all heads can attack even if the Hydra moves.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

And what, exactly is supposed to be the Hydra's weakness? Certainly not magic or ranged attacks. With it's fast healing (10+ (# of heads)), it's nearly immune to both of those.

Ignore it's hit points, and go after it's weak save. Hit it with fear or confusion - the last is hilarious to watch.

The fighter-types, on the other hand, can use archery - it's slow, so a ranger could effectively use Manyshot against it. It won't be terribly effective, but it can get them somewhere. Either that, or strike and retreat, but an 11th-level fighter might not have Spring Attack.

 

[Sanackranib]

the best tactic I have ever seen pc's use aginst a hydra was range. missile fire followed by magic missiles and an area effect fire spell in case it could regrow the heads

 

[DM2]

The fact that the hydra can move and still attack with all of its heads as a standard action seems to lend some credence to the thought that all heads can attack at once on attacks of opportunities as well.

Leaving whether it is balanced or not aside (as we can always argue about whether the CR is correct later), my inclination when reading (and using) the 3.0 hydra was that all heads could attack independently, and could all take advantage of the same attack of opportunity an opponent provokes.

DM2

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The 3.0 hydra was substantially different from the 3.5 hydra. For instance, Learnean versions had NO hit point total for their bodies. Consequently, it made sense to treat them as multiple separate creatures sharing a single space (which, depending on the interpretation, left them INCREDIBLY vulnerable to area effect spells.)

In 3.5, all hydras have hp totals for their body, suggesting that their heads should not be treated as separate creatures in the same way they were under 3.0.

The fact that the hydra can move and still attack with all of its heads as a standard action seems to lend some credence to the thought that all heads can attack at once on attacks of opportunities as well.

Leaving whether it is balanced or not aside (as we can always argue about whether the CR is correct later), my inclination when reading (and using) the 3.0 hydra was that all heads could attack independently, and could all take advantage of the same attack of opportunity an opponent provokes.

DM2

 

[Artoomis]

The 3.0 hydra was substantially different from the 3.5 hydra. For instance, Learnean versions had NO hit point total for their bodies. Consequently, it made sense to treat them as multiple separate creatures sharing a single space (which, depending on the interpretation, left them INCREDIBLY vulnerable to area effect spells.)

In 3.5, all hydras have hp totals for their body, suggesting that their heads should not be treated as separate creatures in the same way they were under 3.0.

The 3.0 and 3.5 Hydras are different, but the bit about all heads always being able to attack is the same. Also, ONLY the Lernean Hydra had it's only way to be slain normally was to sever all its heads - exceopt that spells such as disintegrate, finger of death, and slay living kill a Lernaean hydra outright if they succeed. If the spell deals damage on a successful save, that damage is directed against one of the hydra’s heads.

But ALL 3.0 Hydras could attack with all their heads, always. That aspect did not change, and was true even for pyro- and cryo-hydras.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Actually, it was just as unclear (and just as gamebreaking if allowed) whether or not hydras could attack once with each head on every opportunity in 3.0 as it is in 3.5

Hydras are a very strange creature in terms of the D&D rule-set and seem to break most of the combat rules. The inclusion of a body hit point total for all hydras in 3.5 seems to me to indicate a shift in the way the rule-set treats hydras--a shift from multiple creatures with one single facing and reach to a single creature with a variant feat and a variant pounce ability.

It also seems to me the hydra is designed as a creature to be slain in melee combat by cutting off its heads. Allowing one AoO with each head for each opportunity means that, even characters with the improved sunder feat will probably be dead before they reach the hydra. Which would mean that your interpretation is at odds with the apparent intent of the creature. Since the other alternative is an equally plausible reading of the text, accomplishes the apparent design intention, and is FAR FAR FAR more balanced, it seems that it ought to be the favored interpretation.

The 3.0 and 3.5 Hydras are different, but the bit about all heads always being able to attack is the same. Also, ONLY the Lernean Hydra had it's only way to be slain normally was to sever all its heads - exceopt that spells such as disintegrate, finger of death, and slay living kill a Lernaean hydra outright if they succeed. If the spell deals damage on a successful save, that damage is directed against one of the hydra’s heads.

But ALL 3.0 Hydras could attack with all their heads, always. That aspect did not change, and was true even for pyro- and cryo-hydras.

 

[Artoomis]

Well, Elder-Basilisk, my experience has shown that interpretation that favor the monster are usually the better ones. Going the other way tends to makes monster too easy to defeat.

Plus, in this case, I don't like the idea of player knowing that only one head could make an AoO - that reduces a deadly situation to more of an annoyance.

I say let 'em all attack!! That's what I did with the last Hydra I ran. My players were quite surprised (a very good thing, it keeps them on their toes), but they easily defeated it once they realized all they had to do was kill the body. A fireball here, magic missles there, maybe alightning bolt or tow, and that's one dead hydra.

They're melee nightmares, but have no special defenses against magic. They are nearly trivial to defeat with magic, if you can keep the mages far enough away.

 

[Nail]

Uhmm......I think you've messed up the list of possibilites, Artoomis. Or at least misworded them a bit.

Feats: A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.

As I read it, you could interprete this as:

1. For each AoO, it attacks with all of its heads.

2. For each AoO, it attacks with only one of its heads.

...and really, #2 doesn't fit the text.

Regardless of your interpretation, a hydra will always get 2 AoO possibilities (one per provokation), as it has a 12 Dex, as per the feat. It will also be able to gain AoOs even if flat-footed, as per the feat.

The Hydra's combat reflexes "addition" really only breaks one rule. That is, a creature may only attack once per AoO. The SRD text says "use all its heads". The meaning is pretty clear, if rather devastating. A hydra gets more that one attack per AoO, all because it has more than one head.

Simple enough.


Now, as far as whether this is appropriate or not, given its CR......not really on topic, is it?

This could mean any of the following:

1. It can use all of it's heads for any AoO it makes.

2. It can make one AoO with all it's heads.

3. It can make one AoO with each head, but only one per opportunity per opponent.

 

[Artoomis]

Uhmm......I think you've messed up the list of possibilites, Artoomis. Or at least misworded them a bit.

Feats: A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.

You think so? How about I explain it better?

1. It can use all of it's heads for any AoO it makes. (That's a possibilty of two AoO's for a 12 Dex, each one with all heads)

2. It can make one AoO with all it's heads. (That would ignore the normally added extra AoO from Combat Reflexes, but allow all heads to attack at aonce instead)

3. It can make one AoO with each head, but only one per opportunity per opponent. (That's a LOT of AoO's possible, but only one head per AoO. Dexterity bonus is mute - the number of heads replaces that value. It's a bit of an odd reading, but it could work. A variation on this one would allow TWO AoO's per head because of Comabt Reflexes)

I agree that number (1) is the dealiest and possibly most accurate reading, but, since the Hydrda breaks the normal rules, any one of teh above 3 could be used with some legitinmacy.