D&D General Hypothetical: D&D without ability scores (or bonuses)

[AlViking]

The question was inspired by multiple threads in which people were talking about the balance inherent in rolling for stats versus point buy, or how very good luck or bad luck had impacts on whether a character was fun to play, etc... It occurred to me that if you just eliminated Ability Scores entirely, you could eliminate those potential problems and arguments as well.

Then the a question is really on the role of randomization and whether or not core capabilities when creating a character should rely on rolling dice or predefined values.

My experience (and opportunity to play) other TTRPGs has admittedly been limited but I've never come across randomization at the level D&D can do it in any other TTRPG or video game. I have played plenty of video game RPGs and unless they're based on D&D they never randomize it. You get some sort of pool of points to spend on powers, talents or whatever else they call your abilities. I think rolling for abilities is the sacred cow and I personally choose to ignore it.

I understand why you phrase it as you did but I think it also obfuscates the question.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I get that, kind of. I've reached a point with D&D that its just got a certain look and feel. Like, if you turned Monopoly into a euro a lot of folks would think thats better. I'd say the essence of Monopoly would be gone along with the feel in that instance. Just make another game without abilities.

You're rolling a d20.
You still have modifiers, HD, hit points, armour class, saving throws, skill checks, sorcery points, beholders, chromatic dragons, your standard classes, levels, spell levels, feats, different die for weapons, proficiencies, skills, Strahd, Stephen Karameikos, Tiamat, Vecna, Waterdeep, Elemental, Ethereal and Outer Planes, dancing swords, staff of power, orb of dragonkind, magic missile, Bibgy's grasping hand, time stop...etc and you're saying it is not D&D because it does not have primary stats. Ok.

 

[Cergorach]

D&D is a system, not a world imho. There are D&D worlds/settings like Forgotten Realms, Mystera, Ravenloft, Dragonlance, etc.

There have been many different editions of D&D that play very differently from each other, (just mentioning a few from my own experience) from D&D Basic, AD&D 2nd Edition, D&D4e, D&D5e, etc. For many D&D4e was not D&D, hence it's decline. But there were other attempts...

While the Dragonlance card based SAGA system didn't have the D&D label, it was a D&D world, but was it with the card based SAGA system? It was apparently also used for a Marvel RPG, and then it died. It might have been good (and apparently many folks still really like the Marvel version), but the Dragonlance version wasn't D&D.

On the flipside of this argument, there's been Star Wars RPGs with many different systems attached, WEG SW is drastically different from WotC SW, which in turn is drastically different from FFG SW... Then there's of course the fan made versions (some of which plug into D&D)... SW is thus not connected to ONE system, nor is Lord of the Rings, and many other famous IPs that didn't start in the pnp RPG realm. But there are still people that see one system as the ONE for them...

You can label a game as D&D all you want, but it's still up to the majority of the fans to accept it (or not) as their D&D. And things like the ability scores, classes, and levels are pretty core to whatever D&D experience we've had in the past. Some might like it, others might not.

But that's not to mean a system without ability scores is a bad one or one no one would play... We all play other RPGs, and sometimes we're more attached to a system OR to a setting (and sometimes both)...

 

[Reynard]

It is interesting what some folks consider "no longer D&D" based on things that have been removed. For example, 5E is considered by many (most?) to be the purest form of the game, yet it does not have skill points, nor does it have save or die, or even saves based on level progression. Why don't any of these exclusions make 5E "not D&D"?

 

[payn]

You're rolling a d20.
You still have modifiers, HD, hit points, armour class, saving throws, skill checks, sorcery points, beholders, chromatic dragons, your standard classes, levels, spell levels, feats, different die for weapons, proficiencies, skills, Strahd, Stephen Karameikos, Tiamat, Vecna, Waterdeep, Elemental, Ethereal and Outer Planes, dancing swords, staff of power, orb of dragonkind, magic missile, Bibgy's grasping hand, time stop...etc and you're saying it is not D&D because it does not have primary stats. Ok.

Yes, ok. I am allowed to have an opinion. You are allowed to think differently.

D&D is a system, not a world imho. There are D&D worlds/settings like Forgotten Realms, Mystera, Ravenloft, Dragonlance, etc.

There have been many different editions of D&D that play very differently from each other, (just mentioning a few from my own experience) from D&D Basic, AD&D 2nd Edition, D&D4e, D&D5e, etc. For many D&D4e was not D&D, hence it's decline. But there were other attempts...

While the Dragonlance card based SAGA system didn't have the D&D label, it was a D&D world, but was it with the card based SAGA system? It was apparently also used for a Marvel RPG, and then it died. It might have been good (and apparently many folks still really like the Marvel version), but the Dragonlance version wasn't D&D.

On the flipside of this argument, there's been Star Wars RPGs with many different systems attached, WEG SW is drastically different from WotC SW, which in turn is drastically different from FFG SW... Then there's of course the fan made versions (some of which plug into D&D)... SW is thus not connected to ONE system, nor is Lord of the Rings, and many other famous IPs that didn't start in the pnp RPG realm. But there are still people that see one system as the ONE for them...

You can label a game as D&D all you want, but it's still up to the majority of the fans to accept it (or not) as their D&D. And things like the ability scores, classes, and levels are pretty core to whatever D&D experience we've had in the past. Some might like it, others might not.

But that's not to mean a system without ability scores is a bad one or one no one would play... We all play other RPGs, and sometimes we're more attached to a system OR to a setting (and sometimes both)...

This.

 

[payn]

It is interesting what some folks consider "no longer D&D" based on things that have been removed. For example, 5E is considered by many (most?) to be the purest form of the game, yet it does not have skill points, nor does it have save or die, or even saves based on level progression. Why don't any of these exclusions make 5E "not D&D"?

These are debatable. Finger of Death and Disintegrate can be save or die. Your proficiency, class, ASIs all improve saving throws as you level. There is a skill system even if it doesnt use points anymore.

To answer an earlier question could you have ability scores that dont provide modifiers? Yes, you could. The formula of the D&D system has been adjusted over time. Certain elements are expected as the core. I think making an ability score adjustment as the above is going to be a very difficult sell, but its possible if you can show good results.

 

[Reynard]

These are debatable. Finger of Death and Disintegrate can be save or die. Your proficiency, class, ASIs all improve saving throws as you level. There is a skill system even if it doesnt use points anymore.

To answer an earlier question could you have ability scores that dont provide modifiers? Yes, you could. The formula of the D&D system has been adjusted over time. Certain elements are expected as the core. I think making an ability score adjustment as the above is going to be a very difficult sell, but its possible if you can show good results.

If someone said it stopped being D&D when they got rid of Save vs Dragon Breath, would they be wrong?

My point is simply that where people draw the lines is interesting. We could easily dig back into the archives here and find people claiming such things when both 3E and 4E came out -- and probably 5E but I don't recall any particular hot button issues on that score (but I was not involved in the Next phase/playtest, so I may have simply missed it).

And again, I am more interested in the idea of getting rid of ability scores and using other tools to differentiate characters. In the same way that I would love to see subclasses go away and talent trees to replace them. It is just hypothetical 6E nonsense.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Yes, ok. I am allowed to have an opinion. You are allowed to think differently.

Yes I didn't disallow your opinion, I just find it to be peculiar.

 

[payn]

If someone said it stopped being D&D when they got rid of Save vs Dragon Breath, would they be wrong?

Factually, yes. It is published by the IP owner it is D&D. If WotC made a book of songs to sing while playing jump rope and called it D&D, it would be D&D. How they feel about it as to their interest cant be wrong, its just an opinion.

My point is simply that where people draw the lines is interesting. We could easily dig back into the archives here and find people claiming such things when both 3E and 4E came out -- and probably 5E but I don't recall any particular hot button issues on that score (but I was not involved in the Next phase/playtest, so I may have simply missed it).

And again, I am more interested in the idea of getting rid of ability scores and using other tools to differentiate characters. In the same way that I would love to see subclasses go away and talent trees to replace them. It is just hypothetical 6E nonsense.

If you really want to explore these elements you would get a lot more traction by just making topics on those elements. You muddy the waters by saying they have to be done to D&D.

 

[AnotherGuy]

D&D is a system, not a world imho. There are D&D worlds/settings like Forgotten Realms, Mystera, Ravenloft, Dragonlance, etc.

And that is where we differ and to be clear on my position, not playing in those worlds does not make it not D&D either.

I remember that homebrewing your D&D was a thing.
You still were considered to be playing D&D though.