I appologize . . .

[Morrus]

I'm with James here - it's not his job. Removing the product in this case may have been the right thing to do, but it is the publisher's responsibility, not the store's. I think that it's cool that James chose to do the right thing anyway.

That said... it's also not our job to police other publishers. Sure, letting someone know that they've made a mistake if you should spot it is cool, but it's their responsibility, and their risk, when they publish a book under the D20 STL and/or the OGL. The only people who should really be getting upset by it are WotC themselves, because it is their IP, not ours.

So, it's between the publisher and WotC. RPGNow, or all of us here, have no.. what's the legal term? "Standing"?... we have no standing in the issue. So the best thing to do is to point out such mistakes to the publisher in question in a friendly manner (probably best done privately, in fact); by doing that you've covered any moral obligation you may have. Plus, it's nice to do, because this industry is so small that we should all be helping each other, not trying to cause trouble for (or "nark" on) each other.

I think that the only time anyone else (i.e. anyone but WotC's legal team, or any other publisher whose IP has been used illegitimately) should really be interfering is if such a time comes when the problem was causing damage to the industry. As it is, I don't see this PDF doing any particular damage to anyone else. And if the publisher gets a few sales where the rest of us wouldn't due to doing things we know he shouldn't, again, who cares? Not our business, not our problem. Not unless we can see clear signs that it is harming us in some way.

We ain't the D20 police, folks! At least, I don't recall receiving a pay cheque from WotC. If they want to employ any of us in that manner, then maybe there's room to talk.

 

[HellHound]

" At least, I don't recall receiving a pay cheque from WotC. If they want to employ any of us in that manner, then maybe there's room to talk."

 

[caudor]

I agree with James and Morrus here.

I'm certain that if James would have received a letter from the publisher saying 'oops, I goofed, please remove until I can fix' or from WotC saying 'a .pdf from one of the publishers concerns us'...it would have been removed pronto. No one would have needed to ask twice.

James did the right thing ... by not shooting from the hip when chatter started. It is not his job, yours, or mine to measure the content of .pdfs files from a legal perspective.

James should be free to focus on what he does best: assisting customers, shipping products, maintaining orders, etc.

I can't say enough good things about RPGNow/RPGShop as a vendor.

Let's get back to having some fun now...

 

[WastedTime]

A caveat

“all of us here, have no.. what's the legal term? "Standing"?... we have no standing in the issue”

-A point for Morrus! Although, I am certain, with creative construction, one could find a cause of action for other D20 publishers. I am certainly not suggesting one exists, however.

“So, it's between the publisher and WotC”

-I would just add that in certain circumstances, a distributor/retailer could be sued for infringement. As an example, if a patent application covering a Widget X is drafted with sufficient claims, the assignee of the patent application may be able to seek damages, not only from the maker of an infringing product (a rip-off of Widget X), but also from the distributor, retailer, and final user/customer of said product (though this would obviously be bad business). Additionally, they may be able to seek contributory infringement from the maker for the direct infringement of those later in the chain. However, as one progresse down the liability chain, recovery becomes more questionable and less efficient.


Perhaps it is the attorney in me, but I have found this discussion quite interesting.

 

[philreed]

Police

It is not at all RPGNow's job to police product or to even remove product that is in violation. That they did remove this one shows they care about what they sell.

If it wasn't for the fact that products like this hard other PDF products none of us would really need to care. (I still would . . . I still want to know how many people wasted $5.)

A "task force against stupidity and theft" would be nice but difficult to implement. I think the only thing that can be done is for people to be careful in their purchases. I know I will be in the future.

 

[tensen]

I don't get it... why does it fall upon us at RPGNow to police the products? Sure it would be nice, but we're already way overworked.

Now, if a group of vendors want to form some sort of group to self police, we'd certainly would agree to listen to their input and take items offline.

James

Well... lets look at it this way.
People view your company by the quality of the products you sell.
Why? Well, because unless they have a sample of the product upfront.. they are buying it purely on your reliability. Not the individual that created the product.
You have no way to really offer a refund. So if they don't like the product... they quite possibly don't buy from YOU again.
Hence... quality control is important.
And as a PDF... should it be a breach of the d20 license... and the products have to be pulled from the shelves after the cure period.. it falls upon rpgnow to make sure to do it.

I don't think anyone expects you to look through every product. But if an issue with something comes up.. it is in your best interest to look into it. There were questions and concerns with the product here on EnWorld, with posts by Mongoose and by Ambient Games expressing concern before the product was released.

 

[tensen]

But I think that giving the store a few days to check the validity of the claims and to check to see if the vendor doesn't in fact have license to do these things is not beyond reason, and shouldn't be held against the store.

Most definitely.

 

[Zaukrie]

Ok, I'll go with others and apologize, a little. I certainly didn't mean to imply that James was a bad person. I had screwed up an order with rpgnow a few months ago, but they resolved everything in a friendly manner, and I still buy all of my pdfs from them. I did not look at the timing of this. That is, I did not look at the time from when it was determined to be in violation to the time it took to remove it. I also agree that it is not James' job to review product for compliance.

But I guess it is the paladin in me. If it became clear to me that something I was selling was in violation of copyright or other license/legal compliance issues, I'd stop selling it until the problems were cleared up. Since there is no way for me to look at a pdf before I buy it, I have to rely on the reputation of rpgnow. I'm glad that it is not for sale right now, and I'll try to remember the speed of the internet, and not be so fast to leap to judgement.

I agree that you are in a tough spot in terms of how to handle this when it is not blatantly obvious that there is a problem, so maybe I'll just stay out of these conversations.

 

[jaerdaph]

Lessons Learned

I've learned three things this week:

1. Caveat Emptor - let the buyer beware
2. Caveat Vendor - let the seller beware
3. There are no fans anymore. Only publishers.

 

[d20Dwarf]

Kudos to James for taking this product down.

That said, I think there are some incredibly irresponsible things being thrown around this thread by the pdf publishing community.

To say that self-regulation isn't necessary or important is unfathomable to me. Hasn't Clark made this point time and time again, that it is important to protect all of your interests by helping protect and police the licenses that allow you to publish in the first place?

And again, a shopkeeper is ultimately responsible for what he carries. If RPG Now becomes a haven for illegal products, what separates it from a file sharing program except profits? If I walk into a family bookstore and find adult materials strewn about, it is certainly the fault of the store owner. There is no difference here. If it takes a little longer to put products on the site, so be it. That's RPG Now's job. If it is their job to distribute illegal products, then I guess I should lay off.