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D&D 5E I don't actually get the opposition for the warlord... or rather the opposition to the concept.

Bawylie

A very OK person
This. I keep hearing "the concept" isn't being met. But "the concept" is. Absolutely. It's the 4e mechanics that aren't. But the essence/flavor/feel of the class? That exists in 5e currently. There is no denying that.

There's some denying it. The feel isn't quite there using the Battlemaster fighter nor using the valor bard. Neither feel like a warlord.

Now I'm not interested in bossing any players around or assuming command of the party. But I am interested in a non-spell caster support type class. I don't need 4E powers to meet that feel.
 

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ChrisCarlson

First Post
"Feel" is awfully nebulous. How so?

They can be a warrior who can rally and bolster allies. Provide opportunities for allies to take advantage of and strike in their place. Influence the battlefield (control). What doesn't "feel" like a warlord?
 

Orlax

First Post
My reasons have nothing to do with either of those. My two main points of contention stem from a balance POV and that of agency. I have yet to see a "4e-style" warlord homebrew that wasn't broken. Likewise, they all seem to want to be the boss of the team. I have a problem with both of those big ticket issues.

I'm trying my hand on the warlord home brew. I should hopefully have a draft by the end of the week.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I'm sorry but what concept or concepts does it make available that are not currently available in 5e, or were not available before it existed?
Not just concepts, but play styles, as well. An all-martial party or low-/no- magic campaign, for instance, had always been problematic in D&D, and is once again so in 5e (less so, ironically, because of the 4e-isms of overnight healing, short rests, HD, feats like Ritual Caster, and the like). That's a style of play often attempted in past editions, but requiring extensive re-tooling to work at all (and I'd never seen it work /well/). In 4e, adopting such playstyles was virtually seamless.

The idea of a warrior-type - a 'martial' or 'non-caster' to put it generically or simply a typical fantasy-genre hero - being a natural leader has been with D&D for a long time. Fighters name level coming slightly earlier, at 9th, and bringing with it some low-level followers and the 'right' to claim territory and build a keep, in AD&D, 3e coming right out and saying that fighter tended to 'anchor the party' and to be party leaders (also parodied in OotS), the 3.x-adjacent Miniatures Handbook even had a highly-specialize, non-viable in typical D&D adventuring, 'Marshal' class (that was not an old-west lawman, but a European-idiom Field Officer commanding troops). Those ideas were there because they were common genre tropes, to the point of being cliched. The traditional hero was never a wizard, rarely had magical powers of any sort (might be under a curse or have a fated destiny or something), and typically either charismatic and a natural leader, or grew into leadership as part of his story arc. However, the game failed to put any of that into its mechanics. The AD&D Fighter never had a use for CHA, which was the only thing mechanic that impacted the morale and loyalty of followers, and never gained any ability to model tactical or military knowledge or talent, either. The 3e fighter, likewise, had no such abilities, no use for CHA, and too few skill points to even be good at jumping, climbing /and/ swimming (choose 2!) let alone a master tactician, had there even been such a skill in the PH, obscure attempts like the Marshal or various PrCs fared little better.

The Warlord made those sorts of concepts practical. Not only did it do that, it made them playable while side-stepping the issue of being 'party leader' - the "Leader" classes in 4e were support, they might be a 'spiritual leader' (Cleric) or 'battle leader' (Warlord) in a fluff sense, and thus help their allies with a Blessing or Encouraging Remark, but the player of a "Leader" role character didn't boos other players around. It also, seemingly unintentionally, opened up another kind of concept that had always fallen flat before: the contributing non-combatant or side-kick who doesn't seem to do much, but the party does better for their being around. Fans came up with a corner-case 'lazy' build that mostly granted actions to other characters, seeming almost like a bystander in the narrative. Folks had tried to do such characters in the past, the lower-level thief the party is keeping around for a specific task and needs to protect. It never worked well because there was no way for such a character to pull his own weight. With just the right choices you could make a 'Warlord' build fill that concept - it was a bit of a stretch, you'd have to end up with the odd maneuver where you had to actually take up a weapon and and least make the desultory attempt to hit something, but it was do-able. And it's not do-able now.

Hope that answered your question, Orlax.
 

Bawylie

A very OK person
"Feel" is awfully nebulous. How so?

They can be a warrior who can rally and bolster allies. Provide opportunities for allies to take advantage of and strike in their place. Influence the battlefield (control). What doesn't "feel" like a warlord?

It's totally nebulous.

But let's say you're a fighter. The expectation is you're gonna go smash baddies and take hits. One way or another. The warlord was a capable smasher of baddies, and hearty enough to take a hit, but they're not invincible like fighters, nor as smashy.

And with Valor Bards. Close, but, no spell-slots. They aren't casters (though a subclass caster isn't objectionable).

The feel is closer to bard and cleric but decidedly non-spellcastery by default, and more aimed at improving offense than defense.

But yes, it's nebulous. And if Valor Bard or Battlemaster Fighter fit the bill, I'd drop my complaint.
 

ChrisCarlson

First Post
We might be drifting back to my first point of contention: Balance. Correct me if I'm wrong (truly), but it sounds like you want non-frontline support. Which, to me, is drifting towards lazylord. That build was what was broken about the warlord in 4e. And for the same exact reasons why every hombrew attempt I've seen, to replicate it in 5e, has been as well. Can a lazylord class be made balanced in 5e? Maybe. If so, I'd like to see it.
 

Orlax

First Post
Not just concepts, but play styles, as well. An all-martial party or low-/no- magic campaign, for instance, had always been problematic in D&D, and is once again so in 5e (less so, ironically, because of the 4e-isms of overnight healing, short rests, HD, feats like Ritual Caster, and the like). That's a style of play often attempted in past editions, but requiring extensive re-tooling to work at all (and I'd never seen it work /well/). In 4e, adopting such playstyles was virtually seamless.

The idea of a warrior-type - a 'martial' or 'non-caster' to put it generically or simply a typical fantasy-genre hero - being a natural leader has been with D&D for a long time. Fighters name level coming slightly earlier, at 9th, and bringing with it some low-level followers and the 'right' to claim territory and build a keep, in AD&D, 3e coming right out and saying that fighter tended to 'anchor the party' and to be party leaders (also parodied in OotS), the 3.x-adjacent Miniatures Handbook even had a highly-specialize, non-viable in typical D&D adventuring, 'Marshal' class (that was not an old-west lawman, but a European-idiom Field Officer commanding troops). Those ideas were there because they were common genre tropes, to the point of being cliched. The traditional hero was never a wizard, rarely had magical powers of any sort (might be under a curse or have a fated destiny or something), and typically either charismatic and a natural leader, or grew into leadership as part of his story arc. However, the game failed to put any of that into its mechanics. The AD&D Fighter never had a use for CHA, which was the only thing mechanic that impacted the morale and loyalty of followers, and never gained any ability to model tactical or military knowledge or talent, either. The 3e fighter, likewise, had no such abilities, no use for CHA, and too few skill points to even be good at jumping, climbing /and/ swimming (choose 2!) let alone a master tactician, had there even been such a skill in the PH, obscure attempts like the Marshal or various PrCs fared little better.

The Warlord made those sorts of concepts practical. Not only did it do that, it made them playable while side-stepping the issue of being 'party leader' - the "Leader" classes in 4e were support, they might be a 'spiritual leader' (Cleric) or 'battle leader' (Warlord) in a fluff sense, and thus help their allies with a Blessing or Encouraging Remark, but the player of a "Leader" role character didn't boos other players around. It also, seemingly unintentionally, opened up another kind of concept that had always fallen flat before: the contributing non-combatant or side-kick who doesn't seem to do much, but the party does better for their being around. Fans came up with a corner-case 'lazy' build that mostly granted actions to other characters, seeming almost like a bystander in the narrative. Folks had tried to do such characters in the past, the lower-level thief the party is keeping around for a specific task and needs to protect. It never worked well because there was no way for such a character to pull his own weight. With just the right choices you could make a 'Warlord' build fill that concept - it was a bit of a stretch, you'd have to end up with the odd maneuver where you had to actually take up a weapon and and least make the desultory attempt to hit something, but it was do-able. And it's not do-able now.

Hope that answered your question, Orlax.

You are still talking about exact mechanical implementations of concepts that have existed and still do exist in the game. You even admit that the concepts have been there. You just happened to like the mechanical expression of it that was the 4e warlord.
 

Bawylie

A very OK person
We might be drifting back to my first point of contention: Balance. Correct me if I'm wrong (truly), but it sounds like you want non-frontline support. Which, to me, is drifting towards lazylord. That build was what was broken about the warlord in 4e. And for the same exact reasons why every hombrew attempt I've seen, to replicate it in 5e, has been as well. Can a lazylord class be made balanced in 5e? Maybe. If so, I'd like to see it.

I know lots of people liked the lazy lord and that's cool. What I'm talking about is like, this round, the warlord goes and shores up the front line (hangs with the fighter, gets some hits in, maybe averts some damage). Next round they back off the front and shore up the artillery, calling out a good shot maybe.

It's not strictly lazy lord. I came up with Vanguard. Something like "allies within 10 ft of you can take advantage of your Fighting Style, and you can also employ the fighting styles of any allies within 10 ft of you." This lets you go up and shield wall, fire off volleys, join a duel, and helps you help others when you team up.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
You are still talking about exact mechanical implementations of concepts that have existed and still do exist in the game.
More any successful mechanical implementation by a class, at all. Genre concepts that the game alludes to, but fails to model are hardly 'in the game,' indeed, their absence is all the more apparent. It's not just a matter of disliking an implementation, but of the implementation simply not working. I don't even dislike a failed implementation all that intensely - I wouldn't want to have to try to 'fix' the way past editions tried to do the Lord or Marshal, I appreciate the effort and the challenges of the times.
 
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Orlax

First Post
It's totally nebulous.

But let's say you're a fighter. The expectation is you're gonna go smash baddies and take hits. One way or another. The warlord was a capable smasher of baddies, and hearty enough to take a hit, but they're not invincible like fighters, nor as smashy.

And with Valor Bards. Close, but, no spell-slots. They aren't casters (though a subclass caster isn't objectionable).

The feel is closer to bard and cleric but decidedly non-spellcastery by default, and more aimed at improving offense than defense.

But yes, it's nebulous. And if Valor Bard or Battlemaster Fighter fit the bill, I'd drop my complaint.

Unfortunately for you they have to be as smashy and invincible as fighters in this edition. Actually more precisely they have to be able to be run solo, like all of the other classes and builds (that aren't specifically built for uselessness via terrible spell selection) are able to.
 
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