I don't get high-level D&D (merged)

[A'koss]

Originally posted by WizardDru:
Well, I don't agree with all of what you're saying, but I definitely see your point. I don't think the number of rounds is necessarily indicative of the epic nature of the combat, but I can agree with some of the problems that you've identified...heck, I mentioned some of them above.

My issue with the short high level battles is that it doesn't afford much flexibility, there are too many one-hit-wonders and is highly initiative dependent. You could walk into a battle at full health and die on a single roll. And if it happens to the BBEG of the day it's... kinda anti-climatic and not very "epic" to my mind.

But I also point that I don't agree that play is forced into that style. Take a look at Sepulchrave's story hour, and you can how 'scry and fry' doesn't always work out well, or to PC or my story hour as to how it doesn't even prove that effective against enemies who are properly entrenched. You could rightly point out that this is more a point of campaign setting than the ruleset, and I'd agree, since that was my point. What I'm trying to point out is that BST is not a universal technique that all high level parties must employ. But you are right that it can be bothersome to verisimilitude to have to take such issues into account.

Indeed. It's not that such tactics aren't counterable by suffiently capable opposition, it's the fact these these tactics exist and you must address them in the campaign. For example, to actually have a castle afford you any protection in a world with D&D rules, it has to be a spell-impregnable fortress as well. And this still doesn't preclude high levelers and powerful monsters from just zipping about the world with teleportation, scrying on those who aren't so protected, or using the deadly spell combos to wage "shock and awe" attacks on less well-protected people, cities and other settlements, etc, etc. You have to look at it from the larger campaign perspective and it's effect therein. That's the point I'm trying to make here - D&D conventions have a significant impact on how the world lives with itself.

I do agree that D&D will not mold most fantasy archetypes that well without significant work, and that there are times when it would be nice if it could. However, I haven't run into a game system that does, necesarily, as fiction and movies have different requirements and constraints than a game. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.

I haven't found a system that has suited me either, I think that the basic d20 mechanics are a good starting point though and that has led me to try and create my own. Some of the rule changes we're trying out I've posted on Andy Collins' site http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm10 if anyone's interested (any post that has a "for our low magic setting" in the title). I agree though that is best left for another discussion.

Cheers!

 

[Piratecat]

I'd add the caveat that it's always good to keep a sharp eye on pacing. . . we certainly felt that we had to keep our PCs involved in hunting things down, to the point that we almost never got to do anything that our PCs would have enjoyed or seen as fun. Things that we as players would have enjoyed as well! No mingling and socializing at a fancy affair, no taking a week off to go fishing, certainly no time to pursue romantic entanglements — if we weren't out there making progress against the antagonists, we'd be sorry in no time sharp.

Ohhh, yeah. An excellent point.

I'm almost guilty of this myself. In my game right now, I had set up an important deadline (a character's unwanted impending marriage) to be met when the current adventure was over. I soon realized that this was a horrible mistake. Why? Because as Barastrondo said, the deadline wouldn't allow the PCs to do all the cool character development things that they have damn well earned over this last adventure.

Once I realized this I spoke to the players out of game and asked if anyone would mind if I just moved that in-game deadline back six months with no other explanation than "it was always that way." Everyone thought that was a great idea, and it will now give them the chance to enjoy some of the fruits of their labors without having to rush off to the next big thing. It feels a little iffy, but I think it's the best solution.

 

[(contact)]

but it should definitely be said that the pacing should complement the players' tastes to some extent.

Oh, yes-- allowing the players to express their tastes is what releasing them from stric DM direction is all about. In your case, you had a case of a DM not paying attention to what his players actually wanted, as opposed to those players going all deer-in-the-headlights without a railroaded plotline. It sounds like he could have loosened up his timeline a touch and you would have been fine.

I had a similar problem with a DM who kept making my character *talk* to Orcus, when all the character really wanted to do was try and work on some of his unresolved childhood trauma through a cathardic expression of his primacy. On Orcus.

Once I realized this I spoke to the players out of game and asked if anyone would mind if I just moved that in-game deadline back six months with no other explanation than "it was always that way." Everyone thought that was a great idea, and it will now give them the chance to enjoy some of the fruits of their labors without having to rush off to the next big thing.

Soft + fuzzy = yuo.

 

[shilsen]

My issue with the short high level battles is that it doesn't afford much flexibility, there are too many one-hit-wonders and is highly initiative dependent. You could walk into a battle at full health and die on a single roll. And if it happens to the BBEG of the day it's... kinda anti-climatic and not very "epic" to my mind.

I know exactly what you mean. Forgive me for sharing an anecdote:

Last game, we had three PCs - one male high-lvl human Fighter who is the king of a small country, his niece (also a Ftr, somewhat lower level) and a male halfling rogue as her squire (don't ask!). Anyway, they were leading a huge group of cavalry in a mass combat scenario vs. an army of orcs and other humanoids besieging an allied city, and then the DM produces one of his BBEGs and goes to single combat.

Now bear in mind that we've heard a lot about this guy, who's some centuries-old undead wraith-type creature who was formerly a high-level sorcerer, and he comes swooping across the battlefield riding a huge pterodactyl-type thing. First thing that happens is his mount does a charge on the male Ftr, gets a huge critical, and the Ftr fails his Fort save and drops! One hit and that's it. Anyway, the female Ftr spends some time talking smack at the BBEG, whose mount is now on the ground. The mount bites at her, her triggered action goes off and she cuts off its head (idiot DMs and vorpal swords!). Meanwhile the halfling is just hiding and moving silently for all he's worth. Within 10 ft of the BBEG, mind you, but with his ungodly scores, he doesn't get seen.

Anyway, the BBEG attacks the woman, makes a called shot (another stupid rule!), breaks her arm, and drops her to the ground. Right then, the halfling sneak attacks him. Idiot DM has given him an undead-bane ghost touch shortsword with some other special abilities against just this one BBEG on a 20, and that's what he rolls. The BBEG takes an incredible amount of damage, is stunned (how the heck is an undead stunned, I wanna know!) and the woman stands up and rolls a 20 herself. Blam - end of BBEG!

How's that for an anti-climax? The entire thing took 1.5 rounds, and that was it. I don't think I've ever seen the DM (idiot though he is) cry that hard. Maybe you've seen him post around here (calls himself JRRT, I think)?

Anyway, gotta go...

 

[Wormwood]

Anyway, gotta go...

[Applause]

Now tell the one where the Half-Golem Blackguard easily grapples the lightning-bolt hurling Sorcerer/Psion BBEG and simply chucks him down a hole---saving his son and the galaxy in two rounds.

All that DM preparation down the drain.

 

[WizarDru]

I know exactly what you mean. Forgive me for sharing an anecdote:

You are an evil, evil man. Bravo, sir. Bravo.

 

[A'koss]

I know exactly what you mean. Forgive me for sharing an anecdote:

A fair point shilsen...

However... at the game table... what has just happened?

One PC just bought it in a single blow, without getting in a single lick mind you, and the showdown with the BBEG took two hits - one from each of other PCs. I'm sure player of the king PC felt teary eyed at dying on single die roll after builiding his character along for lord-knows-how-long... but probably not for the reasons you think.

And a DM finding the battle over in two hits has got to be satisfying at the game table as well. I guess that means Miller Time starts a little early today.

Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[shilsen]

[Applause]

Now tell the one where the Half-Golem Blackguard easily grapples the lightning-bolt hurling Sorcerer/Psion BBEG and simply chucks him down a hole---saving his son and the galaxy in two rounds.

All that DM preparation down the drain.

You are an evil, evil man. Bravo, sir. Bravo.

[Bows]Thank you, thank you.

And I didn't even mention the bit where the stupid wizard took out a bridge and some weird half-fiend monstrosity with a retributive strike (hedge wizard with a Staff of Power - bah!), and the DM even let him avoid being blown apart with a contingencied true resurrection, and gave him so many XPs for it that he came back with the archmage PrC! Munchkins!

A fair point shilsen...

However... at the game table... what has just happened?

One PC just bought it in a single blow, without getting in a single lick mind you, and the showdown with the BBEG took two hits - one from each of other PCs. I'm sure player of the king PC felt teary eyed at dying on single die roll after builiding his character along for lord-knows-how-long... but probably not for the reasons you think.

And a DM finding the battle over in two hits has got to be satisfying at the game table as well. I guess that means Miller Time starts a little early today.

Cheers,

A'koss.

Heh! I figured somebody would miss my point. Did you see anything in the post where I said that the above would make for a good gaming session? While the post was tongue-in-cheek, I was also pointing out that what makes for good fiction does not necessarily make for a good game (something I think a lot of people miss). So we're actually in agreement here

At the same time, I think there are ways to work around the problem when engaging in high-lvl gaming (as a lot of people have already pointed out in this thread). When it comes to high-lvl gaming, I think it's essentially just a matter of taste. Some people enjoy it, some people don't. That's it (yeah, I'm simple).

 

[Pielorinho]

Excellent advice, although I'd add the caveat that it's always good to keep a sharp eye on pacing, and on the tastes of your players. I've played in a game that followed this guideline for several years, and it wound up feeling almost more like a chore than like a game toward the end — we certainly felt that we had to keep our PCs involved in hunting things down, to the point that we almost never got to do anything that our PCs would have enjoyed or seen as fun.

I got to this point in your post, looked over at your location, and felt my heart sink -- are you a player in my campaign?

The ramifications of one particular mistake we made were still kicking us around by the time my wife and I moved away to WNC and left the campaign on a regular basis

Oh, thank god!

This is definitely something I struggle with in running a game. I create one villain and a big old plan for him, as well as the first night's session material. But the players only get through a third of what I'd prepared, so for the next week I start thinking about the plan and decide that the BBEG might be pulling in assistance from a secondary villain, and create more material. The following week, I've decided that the secondary villain is planning on betraying the first villain, but that there's also this other NPC who might be friendly, but who will initially look like the villain to the PCs.

By the fourth week, the players are just getting to the heart of the real story, and there's fifty million villains and potential allies out there, all plotting against one another and occasionally against or with the PCs. Players are loathe to let anything slide for even an afternoon of game-time, because they know that some bad guy or another is going to be making a move.

It got so bad that at one point, when I deliberately tried to inject some downtime into the game, the players just about lynched me for being so stingy with clues about where their next contact, their next adventure, might lie.

At the same time, intricate plots can allow for very satisfying conclusions: by the time you finally get to confront the five tweakers who've been making your life hell, you've got a mighty fine grudge worked up.

Daniel

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Heh! I figured somebody would miss my point. Did you see anything in the post where I said that the above would make for a good gaming session? While the post was tongue-in-cheek, I was also pointing out that what makes for good fiction does not necessarily make for a good game (something I think a lot of people miss). So we're actually in agreement here

That is the fundamental reason for Raise/Ressurection. For some players & DMs the combat is not exciting without a real chance of death. If a PC has a measly 2% chance of dying in any given combat, 50 combats later there is a 74% chance that PC died at least once. For each PC in the party.

A deft fiction writer can fudge the dice without bad consequences to the campaign; the DM cannot so easily fend off the laws of probability.