I enjoy clerics without gods

[Kahuna Burger]

I hear what you are saying. Honestly I have a big problem with the "no god" concept. Everytime I've seen it used its by a powergamer who wants a free pick of domains.

and yet, I've never seen it used FOR that.... funny old world. Over in Living Enworld (free plug) I play a godless and in fact atheistic cleric and have taken that complete powergaming freedom to choose the domains of... Knowlege and Protection. Wow. Feel my powergamer wrath. She is actually part of a philosophical movement called the Mortalists, basicly the secular humanists of a fantasy world.

But even aside from personal preference, I as a DM fear no powergaming dweeb playing a godless cleric to pick cool domains, because of what domains mean to me (especially for godless clerics). To me, (and especially in my own campaigns, where the reality of dieties is not cut and dried) Domains are not just the area you have choosen to focus your magic, they are the ideas under which you have focused your life. Whether these are the aspects of your diety that you have choosen to represent in yourself, or philosophical cores which you dedicate yourself to so strongly they form the basis for magic, I will expect you to roleplay your domain choices as life choices with a strictness resevered by most Dms for catching paladins in the act. Combined with my lack of patience for obstructionist or overly trouble causing characters, and I don't see what the problem is.

In terms of the setting, or the flavor behind it, I actually have a problem with purely god powered clerics, because it makes the spell level restrictions feel horribly artificial to me. Sure, you can say that as you gain in levels you are more able to channel more energy and such, but it still feels silly. "I am the conduit through which the power of Bob the Healer flows, doing his work upon the mortal realm... oh sorry, I've reached my allotted conduit capacity for the day, Bob aint pitching in no matter what." This, of course, is partially a problem I have with vancian magic in general, but from an in campaign perspective, divine magic being self generated and focused through your beliefs makes as much if not more sense to me than divine magic as being granted by the diety in careful, level consistant parcels.

Anyway, long rambles aside, I love godless clerics for playing, as a DM and when world building. They just work for me.

Kahuna Burger

 

[LostSoul]

"I am the conduit through which the power of Bob the Healer flows, doing his work upon the mortal realm... oh sorry, I've reached my allotted conduit capacity for the day, Bob aint pitching in no matter what."

That's my problem with Clerics, too. I can't rationalize it. It doesn't make sense to me, and I can't really find a way around it.

 

[Voadam]

and yet, I've never seen it used FOR that.... funny old world. Over in Living Enworld (free plug) I play a godless and in fact atheistic cleric and have taken that complete powergaming freedom to choose the domains of... Knowlege and Protection. Wow. Feel my powergamer wrath. She is actually part of a philosophical movement called the Mortalists, basicly the secular humanists of a fantasy world.

But even aside from personal preference, I as a DM fear no powergaming dweeb playing a godless cleric to pick cool domains, because of what domains mean to me (especially for godless clerics). To me, (and especially in my own campaigns, where the reality of dieties is not cut and dried) Domains are not just the area you have choosen to focus your magic, they are the ideas under which you have focused your life. Whether these are the aspects of your diety that you have choosen to represent in yourself, or philosophical cores which you dedicate yourself to so strongly they form the basis for magic, I will expect you to roleplay your domain choices as life choices with a strictness resevered by most Dms for catching paladins in the act. Combined with my lack of patience for obstructionist or overly trouble causing characters, and I don't see what the problem is.

In terms of the setting, or the flavor behind it, I actually have a problem with purely god powered clerics, because it makes the spell level restrictions feel horribly artificial to me. Sure, you can say that as you gain in levels you are more able to channel more energy and such, but it still feels silly. "I am the conduit through which the power of Bob the Healer flows, doing his work upon the mortal realm... oh sorry, I've reached my allotted conduit capacity for the day, Bob aint pitching in no matter what." This, of course, is partially a problem I have with vancian magic in general, but from an in campaign perspective, divine magic being self generated and focused through your beliefs makes as much if not more sense to me than divine magic as being granted by the diety in careful, level consistant parcels.

Anyway, long rambles aside, I love godless clerics for playing, as a DM and when world building. They just work for me.

Kahuna Burger

And so far my undead and demon hunting godless war and sun domain cleric in Kahuna's PBP campaign has not lost his powers . . . yet.

 

[DarkMaster]

That's my problem with Clerics, too. I can't rationalize it. It doesn't make sense to me, and I can't really find a way around it.

You can't. Magic and gods cannot be rationalized. But if you some kind of explanation that our limited human brain can understand you can easily say that when the divine caster pray in the morning, his god give him a portion of himself or portion of energy, Then the cleric can do whatever he wants with that energy through out the day. Through the prayer the cleric connect to his god and infuse himself with the god's energy. The higher the cleric is the more effective his prayer is and the better his soul accumulate the divine energy. The cleric is not a direct pipe to the god. he is a representant of the power on the prime material plane and through dedicated prayer he gain a finite amount of energy that he should use to preach, convert and execute the God's will on the prime material plane.

Now I have a problem with godless cleric. Since they don't beleive in anything greater than them and they don't understand arcane magic (which could be a mortal creation) where to they get their energy from? The collective toughs or small invisible particle floating in the air (think the force).

I personnally think this godless thing was to accomodate the real life non believer. I myself have strong doubt about the existence of God, and will probably be questioning myself until I get the final answer (death). But IMHO it doesn't keep the road. If you tell me that a priest gain your power from Elemental spirit, fine, but that someone gain spell from the energy that is broadcasted by the travelling people or by all the nurses and doctor healing people is a bit far fetched and much more difficult to "rationalize" than having a greater being giving you energy and code of conduct.

I tried to have those Good and Evil energy in one of my world and it failed miserably because the clerics were deciding what is good and evil and eventually everything was neutral. If nobody is there to enforces what is good from evil, the whole things fall apart.

 

[LostSoul]

Magic and gods cannot be rationalized. But if you some kind of explanation that our limited human brain can understand you can easily say that when the divine caster pray in the morning, his god give him a portion of himself or portion of energy, Then the cleric can do whatever he wants with that energy through out the day. Through the prayer the cleric connect to his god and infuse himself with the god's energy. The higher the cleric is the more effective his prayer is and the better his soul accumulate the divine energy. The cleric is not a direct pipe to the god. he is a representant of the power on the prime material plane and through dedicated prayer he gain a finite amount of energy that he should use to preach, convert and execute the God's will on the prime material plane.

That's what I meant by rationalization. It still doesn't work for me because why should a Cleric become better at praying to his god because he kills an orc or two? What does that have to do with prayer?

"Woohoo! I just killed Kamamabolous the Pink, now I can understand the Third Retelling of Mount Ghobo! I can raise dead people!"

I guess the best work around for me would be to say that when a cleric casts spells he draws the divine into himself and gains awareness that way. But then there's no need to adventure. You could just sit at home and cast spells all day and get the XP.

Now if you needed to fulfill your God's work, well... should you get XP for overcoming challenges that don't?



Still doesn't work for me, because the Cleric isn't

 

[LostSoul]

Now I have a problem with godless cleric. Since they don't beleive in anything greater than them and they don't understand arcane magic (which could be a mortal creation) where to they get their energy from? The collective toughs or small invisible particle floating in the air (think the force).

Okay, here's my rationale: Gods get their power from some cosmic source - they aren't the source of divine power, merely a conduit for their Clerics. A way for people to latch on to an idea. Godless clerics tap the same source, but directly.

I tried to have those Good and Evil energy in one of my world and it failed miserably because the clerics were deciding what is good and evil and eventually everything was neutral. If nobody is there to enforces what is good from evil, the whole things fall apart.

Here's an interesting question: what if the Gods define what is Good and Evil? If you have a Good God, does he define what is Good? Same for Evil. And Neutral ones too, I guess.

Maybe Good and Evil are just labels that human(oids) apply to philosophies and actions. Gods come to embody these principles, but on a bigger scale, who can say what is right and what is wrong? Can the Gods (who are not omnipotent) do that?

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Well, I am forced to query why said cleric wouldn't have faith in his deity? If he didn't have faith in that deity, he wouldn't be a cleric.

Actually, by definition, if you can prove your god exists, you have certainty, not faith.

The more active divine presence you have in your world, the less important faith becomes.

IRL, true believers are going on nothing but faith. Can't prove anything.

If evangelists and preachers start performing true miracles, you're still dealing with faith, but you've got circumstantial evidence.

If Thor and Odin walk down the street, smite a nonbeliever with godly power, gift their believers with health, and then stop an earthquake with a shrug of their shoulders, everyone knows they exist. There's irrefutable proof. No faith required. Theoretically, IMO, faith would be replaced by virtue. Those who epitomize the ideals of their god would gain divine favor, intervention, etc.

This, of course, assumes that gods would be granting their favors much in the way mortals do, with discernable and human-like motives.

 

[DarkMaster]

That's what I meant by rationalization. It still doesn't work for me because why should a Cleric become better at praying to his god because he kills an orc or two? What does that have to do with prayer?

"Woohoo! I just killed Kamamabolous the Pink, now I can understand the Third Retelling of Mount Ghobo! I can raise dead people!"

I guess the best work around for me would be to say that when a cleric casts spells he draws the divine into himself and gains awareness that way. But then there's no need to adventure. You could just sit at home and cast spells all day and get the XP.

Now if you needed to fulfill your God's work, well... should you get XP for overcoming challenges that don't?



Still doesn't work for me, because the Cleric isn't

Well that arguments hold for every class except the warrior class. The 2nd edition tried to change that but it ended up being a very rigid system all thief had to steal gold ect ect...

The way I see it is that in every encounter each character learn about life in his own way otherwise the XP system doesn't make sense for most of the class.

 

[LostSoul]

Well that arguments hold for every class except the warrior class. The 2nd edition tried to change that but it ended up being a very rigid system all thief had to steal gold ect ect...

The way I see it is that in every encounter each character learn about life in his own way otherwise the XP system doesn't make sense for most of the class.

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. But you can fix it easily enough: 300 XP x level per session. More or less for special things that happen (or don't).

D&D is strange. If you think about it, everyone's a vampire. Kill someone/thing else, gain power.

 

[Aaron L]

I see divine magic is being as governed as much by rules and laws as arcane magic. I hate the idea of divine magic being a god giving away some of his power, or tapping into a gods power. Divine magic is the magic of the Alignments and philosphy. That is how gods themselves cast divine spells... they have no higher powers granting them power, they are manipulating these forces themselves. .

Arcane magic is manipulating the laws of the universe, divine magic is harnessing the energies that created the gods, and psionics is learning through discipline and inner strength to exert ones own will on the outside world. I don't like the idea of faith being a part of psionics at all (confidence yes, faith no). Divine magic isn't about faith, it's about service. You learn to manipulate these forces, and in return you must serve these forces. Godless clerics may think they don't serve a god, but they DO serve something, be it an Alignment, a demon, or even god without their knowledge. Faith isn't an element in D&D, because there is direct evidence of the gods. Religion in D&D is about choosing sides and serving the forces you have chosen. Clerics are the agents and magical servants of their gods.