I flank myself! ...

[chilibean]

In the description of flanking, it states you get the flank bonus because your opponent has to turn back and forth between the two opponents (not a quote, just typing from memory).

Now turning back and forth sounds like a willful act to me. What if the flanked person decides not to do that? For example, a party of high level guys is fighting a dragon (or some other big bad guy with decent intelligence). If they cast summon monster I and have a celestial badger attack it from the rear (suppose they can't get around it for whatever reason), does the Dragon HAVE to pay attention to the little idiot badger? Or can it ignore it?

It seems to me that no intelligent monster would pay attention to the badger, thus giving the entire party of people in front of it (the only real threat) a +2 to hit. Granted, it seems like the badger would get the benefits of being invisible (since he is being intentionally NOT watched).

Similiarly can the PC's do it also, to ignore 1 opponent to attack another? If you don't have much of a dex bonus, and 1 opponent is much more powerful than the other, it seems to be a reasonable thing to want to do.

Given that reasoning, if you can choose NOT to be flanked (and thereby grant effective invisibility to an opponent), can you choose to flank yourself even when only fighting 1 person?

Why you may ask? Suppose that someone is supposed to be watching the parties rear to make sure reinforcements don't sneak up behind during the fight. Can one person decide to "turn back and forth" while fighting, granting his opponent a +2 to hit him, but allowing him to make spot checks to the rear every round?

 

[SpikeyFreak]

There should be SERIOUS penalties for ignoring a foe that is attacking you.

In the case of the dragon, it would just use its blindisght and squash the badger with its 1st attack and the tear into the characters.

If a player were to ignore someone who is flanking them, I would give the foe that is ignored some serious bonuses. The guy being flanked would lose all dex and dodge bonuses, and the guy attacking would get some serious circumstance bonuses on to hit and damage. Something like +10 to hit and max damage or some-such.

To tell you the truth I might not allow the ignore at all. If someone is behind you attacking you, and you try to ignore them while they wail away on you, it is going to hinder your ability to defend your self and attack the guy you are paying attention to.

Hasn't come up in my game, so I really don't know how I would handle it, but ignoring someone who is right next to you and trying to kill you is a BAD idea.

--Assassin Spikey

 

[Ravellion]

I think "opponent is invisible" is a very serious penalty. I would still be very careful when to allow this however.

Rav

 

[mmu1]

I don't think I'd allow something like this, - you're making a lot of assumptions about someone's ability to determine if someone is or isn't a threat. (even in case of a dragon, I don't think this would fly - it's a dragon, not a god...) For all you know, that small animal is a reincarnated rogue, a magician's familiar, or a druid's awakened companion with greater magic fang cast on it, and it's going to climb the dragon's left hind leg while it's ignoring it, and bite it in the junk.

For another matter, this would allow people to nullify a rogue's sneak attacks for flanking at will - "Ok, I'll just ignore the fighter completely, since he's probably going to hit me anyway, and concentrate on the rogue so he doesn't get sneak attacks." I don't think so...

 

[CRGreathouse]

How about effectively invisible, Dex modifier -5, no dodge, all hits are threats, and max damage? I don't think I'd allow a CdG, though.

 

[frankthedm]

The main problem is that 3e dropped facing in combat to save time and complexity. To compensate for this the flanking system was added to 3E so you could still wind up in a compromising situation in combat. So rogues and tactically minded fighters can benefit from positioning themselves properly.

My call would be that if you ignored an opponent you would be treated as almost helpless vs. that Foe [you don't threaten them, they can line up a shot to auto hit & crit you. They get +5 to hit you since you can't apply any Dex Vs them. And you might just as well be prone +4 more to hit. And I would let them hit specific parts of your body. [see dmg for those effects] I would say CDG but for my game that actualy takes a full round like casting a one round spell.

If the players think this is too harsh explain to them that flanking is just as part of 3e's combat system is as critical hits, charging, and rolling initiative are.

If the players want the joys of facing in combat then try to get some of the 3E playtest documents that had the old facing rules and try adding those to your game. Or adapt the 2.5E Players option; Combat and Tactics' facing rules. TBH they are't bad but the extra time for the complexity may not be worth it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In the last session of the game I DM, I had a bunch of minor ruffians attacking a PC Fighter.

Some of my players are Rules-Lite, so I occasionally have to explain the reason something is happening.

"Ruffian 2 is aiding Ruffian 1's attack, so he gets a +2 bonus..."
"Why?"
"Well, he's generally distracting you and so forth, so it's easier for number 1 to hit you."
"Can't I just ignore him?"

Maybe it was the evil glint in my eye when I replied to that one - "If you like. Are you sure you want to do that?"

The player considered that for a moment.

"Ummmmm... no."

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

This raises an interesting question:

If Bob is fighting my friend Lisa, and I'm invisible and silent and I sneak up behind Bob, does Lisa get a flanking bonus to Bob, even though he's not aware that I'm there?

I think Lisa doesn't: flanking, I believe, depends on the awareness of the flankee.

Similarly, I'd be perfectly willing to allow someone to ignore the fact that they're being flanked, in exchange for losing their dex bonus against one of the flankers (their choice).

This might lead to interesting tactics: a rogue might be polymorphed into a puppy dog and bound up to an opponent, standing opposite his fighter buddy. The rogue then readies an action. The opponent ignores the puppy, concentrating on the nasty fighter.

That's when the mage casts dispel magic, bringing the rogue back to normal form, and the rogue sneak attacks the opponent.

In general, if opponents can ignore a flanker, then looking ignorable in combat becomes a viable tactic. I don't think in any way this would unbalance the game (although it would nerf a cheeseball summon monster I tactic).

Daniel

 

[ruleslawyer]

Allowing a CDG, auto-crit, or any of these other insane penalties is overkill, IMHO.

I think that it is reasonable for a combatant to concentrate LARGELY on one opponent, at least to the extent of not letting that opponent line up sneak attacks or otherwise gain an advantage based purely on the target's distraction, at the expense of pretty much ignoring the flanking foe but still rolling with blows, flinching, and at least moving around enough to make a solid hit somewhat difficult.

CDG assumes that you're IMMOBILE. This is what "helpless" connotes. Note that characters who are stunned, dazed, or nauseated are not considered helpless; it's a relatively limited state.

I'd just require the character ignoring a flanking foe to treat that foe as invisible (Dex bonus to AC denied, etc.) AND grant the flanking foe a +4 attack bonus, superseding (not stacking with) the +2 bonus for flanking. IMHO, that's enough of a sacrifice.

 

[Power_Munchkin]

hm

I've seen this sort of discussion before... We came to the conclusion that:

1. If you ignore an ARMED person, they have a fair chance of simply killing you. I mean how are you supposed to "minimize blows" (as per the hit point description) if you're ignoring the opponent?

2. No matter how hard you try to ignore Bob the peasant and pay attention to Bob the fire giant, the peasant will still distract you enough (grab your sword arm, grab your leg, poke you with a pichfork) to give the fire giant Bob a +2 to hit you...