I gave a little, and now they want...

[Telperion]

Minor rant warning!

It seems that to me that D&D isn't about playing base classes anymore. You need a prestige class to play a character, and also about a half a’ dozen player guides and various resource books. The 3. edition was supposed to make things simple, or so I have heard. Instead we seem to have more resource books that ever (thanks to the Open Game license) and players who want to customize their characters straight into munchkin land.

Currently I'm having a minor argument over what a social character is supposed to look like. The player wants to pull some PrC from a book I have never heard of and use in my campaign. I don't like the idea and told him to stick to the Scarred Lands and core books. Well, the thing is that he feels there isn't anything there worth taking, and creating a social character requires something more than what the core books and various Scarred Lands supplements can offer.

I told him to stock up on social skills, and also supplied him with a lengthy list of PHB 3.5 feats, which are aimed at social interaction. The problem seems to be that those feats don't offer any cheesy "special effects", but simply give a bonus on two skills.

I don't want my game to lose its appeal because social encounters are handled with dice rolling and mouthing secret incantations like "I have 10 lvl's of PrC X, so I know all your secrets!".

So, what do I say to this player? How do I convince him that the best way to go is with old-fashioned role-playing, accompanied with suitable skill selection? I feel rather frustrated at the moment, so I'll leave the more colorful comments to some other time...

And that brings up an interesting question: is role-playing getting old fashioned? Should we just all sit around and mumble these "secret incantations" to each other and roll dice when confronted with a problem?

End of rant.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Kinda got yourself in a bind eh? Never forget that it is your game and you have every right to restrict what other books players can and can't use. Another example of a game system that went crazy with extra classes and abilities is Rifts. Each successive book had more and more powerful PCs so that eventually the original classes were overshadowed and nobody would play them anymore. When I wanted to run a low end Rifts game I simply told all of the players from the outset which books were allowable for character creation and stood firm on it. You might try addressing the whole group at your next session and do the same. Just tell them which books are allowable and that should be the end of it. If your social player starts griping again then the rest of your group should back you up since they all are playing by your established rules. In the end you can always remind your social player that he has no obligation to play in your group if he doesn't like the ground rules that you set.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I have every sympathy with your situation... I've had/seen similar problems in the past. I've generally stopped allowing PrCs from other sources, as many of them simply don't fit with the material I'm using. 1 particularly bad case was the grappler from Dragon. It was misread by a hurried DM and proceded to really muck up his game...

A possible solution would be to sit down with the player, find out what he actually wants from a PrC and homebrew/modify something to fit with it and the overall power of your game?

I've done this before and it tends to have pretty favourable results...

 

[Plane Sailing]

The problem seems to be that those feats don't offer any cheesy "special effects", but simply give a bonus on two skills.

I think you are correct in identifying this problem, but it is actually a systemic problem with D&D (if not d20 in general). Skill use is secondary to combat in resolving encounters, and far too often it is merely one "all or nothing" roll. This feeds into the lack of feats to support social interaction or, indeed, almost anything other than hitting the other guy.

As a potential solution, you could take a look at the d20Modern SRD and convert some of the talents from the charismatic hero and smart hero classes into feat trees and offer them to him - things like "dazzle", "fast talk", "taunt", "favour", "captivate", "exploit weakness", "plan" are all potential "feats" that you could make available to a socially focussed character which don't bypass roleplaying in some cheesy fashion but give him some useful opportunities in and out of combat that might fit his character.

http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=msrd and look under "Basic Classes" to see the details.

Cheers

 

[Telperion]

A possible solution would be to sit down with the player, find out what he actually wants from a PrC and homebrew/modify something to fit with it and the overall power of your game?

I've done this before and it tends to have pretty favourable results...

I'm a bit wary of home-brewing PrC's, mainly because of balance issues, and also because as soon as one player gets special treatment the rest of them are going to start voicing their own ideas/inventions in a heartbeat.

 

[KenM]

My problem with roleplaying a character with high social skills is something like this:
Me: I try to be diplomatic in rejecting the prince's offer.
DM: What do you say excatly?
Me: I don't know, my character has 8 ranks of diplomacy, but me, the player, does not. Can I just roll?

 

[Zappo]

Resolving social situations through dice rolling isn't a problem related to PrCs. Even without PrCs, if I'm a player who can't roleplay, I could just max out Diplomacy, get a couple of feats, end up with a +19 modifier, and roll.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Again, a completely fair point. I've tended to make tweaks to something already existing, which doesn't seem open the 'blagging' floodgates quite so badly. The real problem arises when you a player wanting something that just doesn't have a place in your campaign world... hypnotism and memory reprogramming are probably the best answers

 

[Buttercup]

It seems that to me that D&D isn't about playing base classes anymore. You need a prestige class to play a character, and also about a half a’ dozen player guides and various resource books.

All you need are the base classes. Heck, you don't even need all of those. You most assuredly don't need Prestige Classes.

The 3. edition was supposed to make things simple, or so I have heard. Instead we seem to have more resource books that ever (thanks to the Open Game license) and players who want to customize their characters straight into munchkin land.

It has made things simple. All you need to play is the SRD, which is free. You don't have to buy any of the source books. If your players are munchkins, that isn't a problem with D20.

Currently I'm having a minor argument over what a social character is supposed to look like. The player wants to pull some PrC from a book I have never heard of and use in my campaign. I don't like the idea and told him to stick to the Scarred Lands and core books. Well, the thing is that he feels there isn't anything there worth taking, and creating a social character requires something more than what the core books and various Scarred Lands supplements can offer.

Your player is wrong. Further, you are the DM. Tell him no. And then tell him that when he DMs a game, he can pick the sourcebooks allowed, and you will play happily by his rules.

I told him to stock up on social skills, and also supplied him with a lengthy list of PHB 3.5 feats, which are aimed at social interaction. The problem seems to be that those feats don't offer any cheesy "special effects", but simply give a bonus on two skills.

I don't want my game to lose its appeal because social encounters are handled with dice rolling and mouthing secret incantations like "I have 10 lvl's of PrC X, so I know all your secrets!".

Sounds reasonable to me.

So, what do I say to this player?

No is the magic word. If you need to say more, try "No. Your PrC doesn't fit with my game and the way I want to run it." Then stick to your guns.

And that brings up an interesting question: is role-playing getting old fashioned?

Not at my table, it isn't. I'm sorry you're having a hard time with this player, but don't confuse his bad behavior with flaws in d20 or greater trends in D&D. After you tell him no, you might direct him to this thread. Perhaps that will convince him he's out of line. Of course, you could always boot him from the game, but that's easier said than done, especially if he's your friend. Good luck!

 

[Darklone]

Hmm.

I had a lot of players with the: "I have no idea what to say, but I use my diplomacy +15" sentence.

Usually I tried to elaborate myself then what the PC would say and what the NPC could accept or take favorably. Tell a nice story and work with your player. They will learn usually and try it themselves. If not... D&D gives possibilities like the Shadowrun Legwork system: Roll a dice and you got infos A)-F), let's get the battle rolling.

You don't have to play that game, it's optional. Simply give your player the feeling he does not need horribly high skills, good skills are enough and offer him some other nice feat choices with fine benefits.