I GM'ed Castles and Crusades for the first time this weekend

[Henry]

...and it went pretty well.

Our group was looking to game this weekend, but due to the hectic week (including one member being in the hospital until Thursday) we had little prep time. I pulled out C&C, and spent until 4 am the night before making up quick-start sheets of all the races, classes, and basic rules of the game.

That was the point when I found Mythmere's quick-start sheets while browsing for character sheets, and promptly failed my sanity check.

I used Keep on the borderlands for the adventure, and we even had a 5-hour session and got to 2nd level PC's before we called it for the day.

A series of terrible dice rolls almost spelled the end of the game in the very first combat: They fought three kobolds and a wolf, and for 7 rounds NO ONE scored a hit but the koboblds and wolf. This near-TPK by a bunch of darned KOBOLDS was routing when suddenly the dice rolls turned around, and the kobolds were killed.

They later cleared the grey oozes, an Owlbear (which almost spelled the end for one PC) and finally the goblin lair (in a harrowing two-front battle involving a nearby Ogre). When it was done, they were all in low-digit hit points and awash in blood, half theirs, half goblin. But a fun time was had by all.

In the end, the players still prefer 3E D&D, but one thing is certain in that I have a good game system for "quick-shot" D&D, especially since I don't have to re-do my work for the start-up sheets now, and could start a game of this in an hour if I had to.

 

[Turanil]

<...> and could start a game of this in an hour if I had to.

This is one of the really cool things about C&C: ease and speed of GMing.

In the end, the players still prefer 3E D&D <...>

Is it possible to know what they like better about 3E? Or why they don't like C&C?

 

[Henry]

This is one of the really cool things about C&C: ease and speed of GMing.

Is it possible to know what they like better about 3E? Or why they don't like C&C?

Mainly for the same reasons I do: We enjoy more the character customization options that are spelled out in the rules and supplements, rather than "winging it" with C&C, plus a bunch of add-on rules and generalized skill checks. In the end, both give you a game where things happened, and the same kinds of events happened, but how you get there is a very different process, and whereas some people don't enjoy the added rules and prefer a simpler path, others relish the add-ons and enjoy what it gives them.

I'm the kind of guy who will spend a week on character options before a D&D game (and used to even under 2nd edition, which I don't think I EVER played a core rules game of), and I'll pore over options and tinker with things a hundred times before settling on the final PC. In C&C, you can make a straightforward character in under thirty minutes (more like ten minutes once you've done it once). Depending on the kind of game you want, that's a blessing - or a curse.

Same deal with them. We sat down, we made characters, and we PLAYED THE GAME. We didn't involve with lots of roleplay (we could've, but it wasn't what we aimed for), they gave one or two sentence reasons for existance and adventure, and OFF they went.

 

[Master of the Game]

Just a quick question from someone who hasn't really looked at C&C, but is interested.

When I want to put down all of the complex mechanics and step away from roleplaying for a little fast action, I usually just pick up OD&D in the form of the Compenium and did out my old adventures.

What makes C&C better?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I really am curious. If the games are similar, why not just stick with the old one. Am I missing something?

 

[Henry]

Just a quick question from someone who hasn't really looked at C&C, but is interested.

When I want to put down all of the complex mechanics and step away from roleplaying for a little fast action, I usually just pick up OD&D in the form of the Compenium and did out my old adventures.

What makes C&C better?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I really am curious. If the games are similar, why not just stick with the old one. Am I missing something?

Three things:

1. In print and available to players new and old, and currently actively supported.

2. The SEIGE mechanic basically works like the DC mechanic of d20 instead of house-ruling up a "d20 or lower" or "3d6 or lower" attribute check of OD&D

3. more choices than OD&D, already written up in the book instead of having to write them up.


By "OD&D" are you talking about the D&D Rules Cyclopedia? Not quite the same thing as "Original D&D", but even then, the points still hold. It's kind of a halfway point between the D&D Cyclopedia and 3E , and has the advantage of being currently supported and available to all.

 

[Dragonhelm]

What makes C&C better?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I really am curious. If the games are similar, why not just stick with the old one. Am I missing something?

There are several advantages to C&C. I'm sure those more familiar with the system can elaborate, but I'll give what answers I can.

C&C is a very simple system, and great for the first time gamer. Though it has a bit of an "old school" feel to it, it draws from all editions (i.e. AC scaling upwards, each ability score having a single modifier, etc.).

As was mentioned above, character generation is very simple. Most rolls in C&C are a matter of rolling a d20 and adding the appropriate ability score modifier and class level (if class level is appropriate). All six attributes figure into the saves, which are based on the 1e/2e saves.

There is no skill or feat system, which can be viewed either as a benefit or a detriment, depending on your point of view. On the one hand, you don't have some of the customization options available. On the other hand, you don't necessarily have to have ranks in a skill in order to do it. Just determine which ability score your action should be tied to and roll as normal.

The big advantage to C&C, IMO, is that it isn't as much of a quantifiable system. The power is put back in the DM's hands, and the story and adventure are the focus of the game.

EDIT: The one other thing that is good with C&C is that it is easy to adapt to the system, especially with older modules.

Personally, I think I'm shooting for something in between C&C and D&D that gives much of the simplicity of C&C yet the customization of D&D. I haven't had much time to work on it, though.

 

[Turanil]

What makes C&C better?

All of this is **IMO** of course:

1) C&C better than OD&D /BD&D / AD&D 1e-2e? Yes, I think so, as C&C uses streamlined easy and fast rules inspired from d20. As such you add your bonuses to your d20 roll and must have a higher result than the DC or AC. Also the SIEGE engine (see the various reviews for more info) handles all skill checks and saves, which is a vast improvement over the older versions of D&D...

2) C&C beter than d20/3e? No, I don't think so. C&C is faster and easier (especially for the GM) at the expense of detail, ability to customize, etc. that is the mark of d20/3e. As a player it's probably much more fun to play d20/3e, that allows you to create any type of character you want. Yet, this is true mostly for experienced players, as newbies may like how easy it is to create a character and understand the rules.

 

[der_kluge]

This is the crux of the discussion we're having in general here

 

[Master of the Game]

Thanks all. Sorry for derailing the discussion.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Just a quick question from someone who hasn't really looked at C&C, but is interested.

When I want to put down all of the complex mechanics and step away from roleplaying for a little fast action, I usually just pick up OD&D in the form of the Compenium and did out my old adventures.

What makes C&C better?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I really am curious. If the games are similar, why not just stick with the old one. Am I missing something?

Basically you use BAB instead of THAC0. It's more to it than that but that's the idea. C&C uses some of the new concepts from 3.5 but still keeps it simple as OD&D.

Edit: Oops. That was pretty redundant. That's what you get from not refreshing your browser whilst doing other stuff.