I guess I am a rules lawyer... Is that so bad

[Dagger75]

Well I get to play in in my freind Kalamer game (yee haa!!) and after DMing 3e for so dang long I have picked up the rules. Other players don't know the rules so well and I catch the mistakes. I want to keep my mouth shut, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Most of the time the DM agrees with me when I correct an error. He has rules against me, made house rules and have no problems with that. This is his game I want him to enjoy it to. I should just keep my darn mouth shut but sometimes it bothers me. Like the one guy who made a spare Forgoten Realm character and used him in the Kalamar game. Okay no problem there, just change a few languages and your basically set.

Well he forgot to remove the extra starting equipment that Realms character get. I noticed it after a few rounds and told him, just him. Now granted this extra stuff was to our benifit but I didn't think it was right. Well he didn't remove it yet. (And since he is on these boards he knows who I am talking about)

Also our other player accidently added an extra point of str to damage only. I know, I made his character an put the damage on his character sheet. 99% percent of the time he plays 1/2 orc fighters/barbarians with 20 str this time he has 18. I tried to remind him with out any one else noticing but he didn't get the hint.

See I am a rules lawyer, is that so bad. I don't want to a jerk or anything like that but after typing this out is sure seems like I am. Do I need help, or should I just keep my big fat mouth closed and let it go??

 

[Mark]

if you were just worried about the fun of the other players, I'd suggest you bide your time until you DM again. If you were concerned that the DM was doing things that was making things not so funfor the other players, I'd suggest you talk to him away from the game about things, but diplomatically. But it seems like you are the one who is not having fun, so all I can say is that you need to not let the rules that this DM is using at his table get in the way of letting loose and having some fun yourself...or you might need to find a different game. Nonetheless, you still have one of the best damned sigs on these boards, so life ain't so bad, eh?

 

[Destil]

You're not a rules lawyer, you're the resident expert. The resident rules expert points out little mistakes, both those that benefit and hurt the party, and any good DM should value having a good one watching their back.

A rules lawyer doesn't care what the correct reading of a rule is, they twist and pervert the rules (often in the most literal sense) to give them any advantage they can scrounge, constantly interrupt the game with meta-game arguments over rules minutia and are a general pain.

 

[Ashwyn]

You're not a rules lawyer, you're the resident expert. The resident rules expert points out little mistakes, both those that benefit and hurt the party, and any good DM should value having a good one watching their back.

A rules lawyer doesn't care what the correct reading of a rule is, they twist and pervert the rules (often in the most literal sense) to give them any advantage they can scrounge, constantly interrupt the game with meta-game arguments over rules minutia and are a general pain.

I agree completely. I am not up on the rules, and I have a hard time comprehending them by just reading them, so someone like you would really help me.

 

[shilsen]

You're not a rules lawyer, you're the resident expert. The resident rules expert points out little mistakes, both those that benefit and hurt the party, and any good DM should value having a good one watching their back.

A rules lawyer doesn't care what the correct reading of a rule is, they twist and pervert the rules (often in the most literal sense) to give them any advantage they can scrounge, constantly interrupt the game with meta-game arguments over rules minutia and are a general pain.

Nice description. I'm the rules expert in my group, and having someone at the table who knows the rules actually helps to speed up stuff during the game. And since I point out rules that help the PCs as well as those which help the DM's NPCs, it evens out. Of course I have to put up with the standard ribbing from both DM and players for being a "rules lawyer", but it's all in good humour, so I don't mind. It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it

 

[KnowTheToe]

Most of my expereince in gaming has been homebew worlds and games that are story heavy and rules light. I appreciate the people who know the rules better than I. Many times I don't think it is important to know a certain detail, but sure as hell, the second I do that the PCs will want to use those over looked rules.

In your case, I would suggest talking to the DM about the incorrect str bonus and letting the other character things go, since you have talked to the PCs about them already.

 

[Frostmarrow]

In my group we all know the rules pretty well so we don't need a resident expert. However, I've noticed of late that our DM (who also knows the rules full well) have begun to disregard them. I don't know why he does this but it certainly keeps us on our toes, keeps us guessing. A world that used to be easy to comprehend has become a very inhospital place where suddenly anything can turn for the worse. Not that I'm complaining.

 

[Barak]

Well, I had sort of a similar problem, and mine was compounded by the fact that I didn't know anyone in thr group I was playing with. I had just moved to a new area (heck, a new country, but anyway), and had found a group willing to allow me to game with them through the web. By experience, I knew full well that coming in and starting to tell them "no, you fools! This is how it's done!" would be a Bad Thing. Especially given the fact that I had just bought my 3E PHB the night before my first gaming session.

But, since with my old group (in which we were all good friends outside of gaming) I -had- to be somewhat of a rule lawyer (our DM was expecting me to be one, since one of the other player was sort of a munchkin, and it was my "responsability" to keep him in line), by force of habit I had already read the PHB front to back, and being a quick learner, knew the rules better then they did. And due to my "responsabilities" in my old group, it was hard to break the habit, and keep my mouth shut. So what I did was.. Mostly keep my mouth shut, but once in a while (usually when the ruling in question was -very- wrong and really unbalancing), I would, in a respectful manner, say something like "hmm.. are you sure about that? If I'm not mistaken..". And at first, in order not to antagonize the DM (they tend to be the most touchy about such things), I would try and limit such comments about stuff done by other players. Now, this was over many, many game sessions.

And what do you know? Eventually, they started -asking- me about different relatively obscure rules, at which point I would, obviously, answer them. Now, luckily I must say I had the good fortune of finding a -good- gaming group. By that, I mean they are more concerned about the game itself then about being right, and do not feel threathened by not knowing something. And there's no munchkins, which helps as well.

Morale of the story? Being a rule lawyer is not necesserly bad. It all depends on how one goes about it, and the reasons one does it. If it comes from a desire to prove their superiority (about game rules? Please!), or just because they are a jerk, then it's bad. If it comes from a desire to try and keep the game balance, in order to make the game more enjoyable for all, or simply from a desire to keep things going fast (it's faster to know the rule then to look it up), then it's usually good.

 

[Arnwyn]

No, that's not bad at all. For my game, I encourage the players to be "PHB Rules Lawyers" (or whatever semantics you want to use). If I flub something that's in the PHB, I *expect* the players to contradict me and give me the correct ruling.

Outside of the PHB, though - well, now they're treading on the DM's turf, and had better keep their mouths shut...

 

[Nail]

No, that's not bad at all. For my game, I encourage the players to be "PHB Rules Lawyers" (or whatever semantics you want to use). If I flub something that's in the PHB, I *expect* the players to contradict me and give me the correct ruling.

Again, as long as everyone's civil about it. The problem is when "PC lives or livelihoods" are at stake.

Still, it's best if at least one player knows the rules well....it helps as a sort of "assistant DM".

In any case, what Dagger75 described doesn't sound much like "rules lawyering". I think that term's been bandied about too much to have any real meaning. Kinda like "munchkin".