I had an idea, tell me if this will work

May I suggest you obtain flight, shrink boulders, and drop them on the enemy?

If you have access to the right spells, there's a much more efficient way to do it.

The reversed version of "Turn Pebble to Boulder" (I think that's the name) will take a number of boulders per caster level and reduce them to pebble size.

Load the pebbles into a catapult, and cast an "Ottiluke's Dispelling Screen" directly in front of the catapult's throwing arm.

Now when you fire the catapult, you throw and entire pile of boulders into the enemy ranks.
 

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Your boulders would retain the momentum (mass times velocity) they were imparted with when they were still boulders. Thus, their velocity would immediately drop by the same factor their mass increases by. Meaning, lots of boulders lying just in front of your catapult.
 

Your boulders would retain the momentum (mass times velocity) they were imparted with when they were still boulders. Thus, their velocity would immediately drop by the same factor their mass increases by. Meaning, lots of boulders lying just in front of your catapult.
Hey, don't make me break out the Hamster Cannon! :)

Conservation of Momentum is 100% not applicable in a magic world. There is no situation in real world physics where objects spontaneously gain or lose mass, so trying to apply real world physics to that situation is just a non-starter.

Look at what it says under Enlarge Person, w/regards to missile fire. Arrows revert to normal size when they leave the Enlarged person's possession, and do normal damage. They don't increase in velocity or range, even though Conservation of Momentum (if applicable) should have pumped their speed by a factor of 8 (the same proportion as the mass they lost.) So no, the boulders wouldn't gain or lose velocity either.
 

Hey, don't make me break out the Hamster Cannon! :)

Conservation of Momentum is 100% not applicable in a magic world. There is no situation in real world physics where objects spontaneously gain or lose mass, so trying to apply real world physics to that situation is just a non-starter.

Look at what it says under Enlarge Person, w/regards to missile fire. Arrows revert to normal size when they leave the Enlarged person's possession, and do normal damage. They don't increase in velocity or range, even though Conservation of Momentum (if applicable) should have pumped their speed by a factor of 8 (the same proportion as the mass they lost.) So no, the boulders wouldn't gain or lose velocity either.
They also do damage based on the weapon that fired them, not their current size. Which, by extrapolation from the known in-flight size-changing effects, using grapeshot of shrunken boulders might look impressive, but it'll do no more damage than normal grapeshot.

By further extrapolation from the same source, though, getting a bunch of over sized darts, shrinking those down, and having minions throw them through the Dispelling Screen, on the other hand....
 
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Hey, don't make me break out the Hamster Cannon! :)

Conservation of Momentum is 100% not applicable in a magic world. There is no situation in real world physics where objects spontaneously gain or lose mass, so trying to apply real world physics to that situation is just a non-starter.

Look at what it says under Enlarge Person, w/regards to missile fire. Arrows revert to normal size when they leave the Enlarged person's possession, and do normal damage. They don't increase in velocity or range, even though Conservation of Momentum (if applicable) should have pumped their speed by a factor of 8 (the same proportion as the mass they lost.) So no, the boulders wouldn't gain or lose velocity either.


As Jack Simth pointed out, projectiles fired by an Enlarged character do damage as for the weapon that fired them, even though they revert to normal size! That strongly implies conservation of momentum is part of the D&D world.

I'm glad it is, actually, for who knows what might happen otherwise... "Oh hey, I spontaneously jumped up a mile for no reason at all! Damn magic physics messing up my day again! Now where did I put that potion of Featherfall..."
 

As Jack Simth pointed out, projectiles fired by an Enlarged character do damage as for the weapon that fired them, even though they revert to normal size! That strongly implies conservation of momentum is part of the D&D world.
Ironically, that is completely reversed with thrown weapons, which do damage based on their size (no launcher). Do NOT look to D&D for consistency in physics.
 

I asked you not to make me do this, but once again I'll break out the Hamster Canon (tm). :)

I posted this a few months ago, so if it sounds familiar that's why.

I had the Conservation of Momentum question come up once before, when dealing with an epic monster, a colossal construct of some type. It had a DR50/+5 (It was a 3.0 critter), and an anti-magic field that went out 50 feet, so there pretty much wasn't a +5 weapon anywhere near it.

My solution was to take a mule and load it down with a pack saddle and as much stone as it could hold. It doesn't have to walk with it, just be able to stand up. We figured the fully loaded mule weighed a ton.

Now Polymorph it to a hamster. Since hamsters don't wear pack saddles, the pack saddle and boulders get absorbed into the new form, and effectively vanish. Rinse/repeat until you have a bag full of hamsters.

Load hamster into sling and fire. As soon as it hits the AMF, it turns back into a fully loaded mule, and hits like a ton of bricks (literally).

And, of course, someone argued for the application of a physics principle to a situation where it could never occur. Conservation of Momentum was invoked.

In response, I brought the following argument: If the game world runs on physics, then it's a round world, about earth sized since it has similar gravity and day/night cycles. It's spinning on its axis, and orbiting the sun at about the same distance.

The DM agreed.

So, I argued, the surface of said world is moving at a bit over 1000 mph, since it has a circumference of 25,000 miles and rotates in 24 hours. It has an orbital velocity of about 62,5000 mph, in order to have an orbital cycle the same as Earth's.

The DM agreed.

When I do that Polymorph, we're converting 2000 lbs to about 4 ounces, or 1/4 pound. That's a mass drop of 8000 to 1. If Conservation of Momentum applies, and we're doing this at midnight, when the surface rotational velocity adds to the orbital velocity, the hamster should suddenly acquire a lot more velocity. As in, 8,000 x 63,500 mph of velocity, or about 75% of the speed of light.

The sudden departure of the hamster from the planet's surface (it's now moving well in excess of even Solar escape velocity) should create a shock wave that will devastate pretty much everything within miles of its path, and tear away approximately 25% of the planet's atmosphere.

If we did it at noon, when the rotational and orbitals speeds aren't combined, the effect is slightly less. At sunset the direction is more vertical than horizontal, so the path of destruction should be much less, but if you do it at sunrise the course would be straight down.

Think of the meteor impact that punched the Earth's crust in the north Atlantic, and formed Iceland. The point on the surface where the mule was standing would now be more or less theoretical, as the impact crater would kind of destroy all reference points around it.

Now, as you struggle to grasp the enormity of the energy we're talking about, we won't discuss the velocity of the solar system in its orbit around the center of the galaxy. Nor will we even begin to attempt the math needed if we were to have used an elephant instead of a mule. Relativity begins to come into play, and we'd be arguing whether the hamster is now traveling at 45 times the speed of light, or whether Lorentz-Fitzgerald contractions come into play, and time distortions limit it to 99.999% of the speed of light.

And all from a single 4th level spell, and the very very bad idea of trying to apply poorly understood physics principles to a situation where they couldn't occur.

Remember, it's a game, and pretty much all magic already ignores the laws of physics. Trying to apply those laws, selectively, is just a bad idea. There's always someone like me to come along and ask why it only applies half the time.

<edit> The last time I brought this up, we got into a discussion on the aerodynamic properties of hamsters, and whether he should be pointed nose-first or butt first. You don't want to go there, trust me. :) </edit>
 
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I'd like to give XP for that, but it seems I can't at the moment.

However, counter-argument: obviously, basic physics applies in many ways in D&D and seems very similar to our own. For the sake of simplicity (Occam's Razor and such), I'd assume physics in D&D is exactly the same as in our world, and magic just finds ways to do what it does within this framework.

In the case of polymorph-induced mass reduction/increase, can't we assume that the hamsters' mass from your example still exists, but isn't bound up in what is perceived to be the hamster entity? As in, the matter in the space immediately surrounding the hamster gets much, much denser, and the this increase in matter density is dispersed (kind of a wavefront of matter density traveling out from the point where the polymorph effect happened, which gets weaker with distance traveled)?
That way, the hamsters' mass would not actually be lower than the mules' - the excess in mass would just be stripped away from the Polymorph's target and redistributed to the surrounding area.

We can 'perceive' in the experiment, that the hamsters do not suddenly gain crazy velocity and rip the environs apart. What we 'perceive' when polymorphing mules to hamsters is that now a hamsters sits exactly where the mule has been standing before, and all is fine and dandy. But is that an argument against conservation of mass applying?
It seems to me much easier to come up with the kind of explanation I gave above (or even just handwave it and say "I'm sure there IS an explanation, but I'm not a physicist, so how should I know?"), than imagine a world where fundamental laws of physics don't apply in the way we're used to them.
 

Wow! Just wow.

From "basic physics" to theoretical quantum dispersion of mass into a semi-static wavefront, in one paragraph. I'm impressed.

Okay, let's play along. Let's all accept that Conservation of Momentum doesn't apply to polymorphs, but does to straight size changes.

So, when I shrink that boulder with Shrink Object, it should still accelerate to 63,500 x 4096 miles per hour, minus the current orbital+rotational velocity, for a total of 260,032,500 miles per hour relative to it's starting movement. That's a shade over 35% of the speed of light. (The spell reduces by a factor of 16 in each dimension, so the mass loss would be 16**3, or 4096).

And "Shrink boulder to pebble", as mentioned, would accelerate to an even higher speed, since the mass change is that much more drastic.

See the problem? Your basic presumption is one contrary to "basic physics". You're acting is if the world were stationary, and the sun and stars all orbit around it.

Of course, the D&D world never had a Tycho Brahe or Galileo to prove otherwise, so... :)
 
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